<p>After 20 years working in education (secondary & University including Harvard) and 3 years on CC this month, I have to say something harsh that has been my mind for a long time because it might be helpful to some. Kids who talk about Harvard all the time, who have it as their "dream school," and who try to maximize their chances of getting in are never accepted. The ones who are accepted and admitted are consumed by activities in which they have a true interest, independent of a resume, and they sometimes get a few A- or even Bs. They also tend to not place themselves at the center of their world. I am not saying that Harvard freshmen are selfless. I am saying that high school students who are self-absorbed with a singular goal to attend Harvard, instead of having true interests and caring connections with others, will never get in and in any case need to re-evaluate their priorities. Harvard is not the Holy Grail; it is a fine university but you're likely to have a better undergraduate classroom experience at Williams or Kenyon. It has obvious strengths for a certain kind of student. I wish that the wave after wave of high school students obsessed with Harvard would calm down and look at the full field of colleges. Having Harvard as a "dream school" is unoriginal and unrealistic.</p>
<p>@harvcrimson</p>
<p>I’m going to have to respectfully disagree. I know several seniors who would incessantly talk about their ivy league ambitions, and got accepted to several ivies. These people also had a ton of national awards, including placement at NFL Nationals for speech and debate. Just because they’re obsessed with going to a certain ivy league institution doesn’t necessarily mean that they aren’t invested in their interests. The people who typically don’t gain admission to ivies tend to be the hopefuls who join a myriad of clubs and do nothing in them in hopes of strengthening their college application, and I think you may be alluding to those types. But the ones who want to go to ivy league schools and actually do things that are significant have just as good of a chance as any to gain admission into ivies, even if they are obsessed with a certain selective “dream school.”</p>
<p>Those are just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>I agree. In my case, at least, I didn’t even start worrying about college until I applied SCEA to Yale. It was really an afterthought. I am really, really freaking passionate about the few things that I excel at. In fact, I want to/ will continue to do them for the rest of my life. For me, Yale was a means to a certain end, and certainly not an end in itself. I’m sure that this is the same for all of those admitted into hyper-selective universities.</p>
<p>I know that I would have excelled anywhere I went. I know that I would have followed my dreams and ambitions at any university. Yale happened to be the one that would best suit my needs, but if I had not gotten in, I’m sure that I would have been equally accomplished down the road.</p>
<p>This is also equally true for my friends who were recently accepted to Harvard and Stanford, in particular. GL to all.</p>
<p>No generalization is true 100% of the time, but Snarlatron makes a good point.</p>
<p>Of course being obsessed with Harvard is a bad thing, but I’m not so sure aspiring to get in is. Just from reading the SCEA threads of HYPS, it is clear that many of the accepted kids really wanted to get in but that doesn’t mean they were mindless drones only participating in EC’s to get accepted. A lot of those kids are very passionate and want to go to HYPS to further their dreams and attend one of the best schools in the world (in many fields). Wanting to attend a top tier school just because it is top tier, is nothing to be ashamed of (especially if you aren’t lucky enough to visit every school you apply to). Harvard is a great school, and while I agree that prestige shouldn’t be the only reason to apply, having it as a major one isn’t that bad. As long as one is well informed about their chances and has other schools they love, I don’t see the problem.</p>
<p>Also, having Williams as a dream school is no less “unoriginal and unrealistic” than wanting to attend Harvard, it has a 17% acceptance rate and about 7,067 applicants.</p>
<p>@MikeNY5 Congrats on getting into Yale. I don’t mean to belittle you in anyway but didn’t you say on another thread you went to a very prestigious high school? While I’m not trying to imply you didn’t earn it (even though I don’t know you, I’m sure you did) not everyone is as lucky as you. Someone from a terrible, underachieving high school cannot afford to be so nonchalant about their college process. While you see Yale as means to an end someone else may see it as a chance to change their life. There is nothing wrong with being informed and hopeful, as well as passionate. Have fun at Yale!</p>
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Westofguam, your post is well-taken. When I hear a student utter the words “dream school,” I know that they have not taken the college selection process very deeply or seriously. When someone talks of Harvard being their “dream school” they are compounding this with what Charles Bukowski disdainfully calls “obviousness.” But beyond this, I have noticed that students aiming at good (or even the most selective) LACs are often a cut above the brand-hypnotized; they’ve done some introspection and research. Some of the best young minds I’ve known made lists with places like Carleton, Vassar, Reed, Denison. I feel bad that the brand-chasers are naively setting themselves up for an unnecessary disappointment.</p>
<p>@westofguam I totally agree. Privilege is inherit in many cases, and mine was one of them. I was just comparing my situation to that of others experiencing a similar process. But, I totally agree.</p>
<p>I also should note that I was on full aid at Andover/Exeter/Grotton/Hotchkiss (Ill keep ya’ll guessing); the same will be true at Yale. I was still lucky enough to be born into an environment wherein an emphasis was placed on education. With that, I did the best with what I had. </p>
<p>I largely agree with the first post (although I can’t say that one would have a better classroom experience elsewhere).</p>
<p>I never even thought about going to Harvard; I just applied there because a few people said that I should. I was all set to go to another top-10 school and never planned, desired or imagined going to Harvard; I just did my best in undergrad, largely out of fear of failure. Due to that, I ended up going to Harvard and am now a happy alumnus. People should just do their best and roll with whatever results from giving their all to their studies and extracurriculars. </p>
<p>@snarlatron I agree. Most people who know about those schools are pretty college savvy. It’s a shame that those schools are sort of a well kept “secret” when comparing the number of applicants to other top tier schools. I also understand what you’re saying about dream schools, for the unlucky majority no good comes from having one. People should first and foremost be well informed about schools they wish apply to, then choose reasons for liking the school on top of this, whether it is prestige our actual fit.</p>
<p>P.S. I reread my post and I sounded really snarky, sorry about that. You have much more experience than me. Thank you for your insight!</p>
<p>@MikeNY5 I didn’t mean to say you were privileged, (I’m full aid too or hopefully anyways. I don’t want any loans!) I just meant your school may have provided great opportunites that other schools don’t have (informed gc’s, good relationship with schools or summer programs, great ec opportunities). That is amazing and you deserve it but unfortunately some others just don’t have those things even if they work/study hard. Anyways, I do think that everyone will get in to a school that is best for them, but it doesn’t hurt to dream (well I guess it does if you’re rejected but yeah, you know what I mean). Congrats again.</p>
<p>yeah, i totally agree. but I am privileged for having attended! no doubt about it. @westofguam</p>
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@CityEntrepreneur, I’ll call Mea Culpa on this one since I haven’t been in a Harvard UG classroom since the 90s and I know that H’s commitment to UG teaching has vastly improved since then. </p>
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<p>I agree, but for those middle class students that need financial aid, Harvard will offer more money than the vast majority of liberal arts schools across the country. So, it’s a trade-off for students that need aid – go to Williams, Kenyon, Carleton, Vassar, Reed, Denison or ‘X’ University for a supposedly better undergraduate classroom experience and take out loans to do so, or go to Harvard (if you can get in) and graduate debt-free. That’s why Harvard and Yale were “dream schools” for my kids! Attending Williams would have cost $20,000 more per child, per year, so it really felt like my kids had won the Powerball lottery when they were accepted to HY. I imagine that’s also true for a great many students who apply – after all, more than 60% of Harvard students are receiving financial aid, which I believe is a higher percentage than most other universities.</p>
<p>More than 60% of Harvard students are receiving financial aid, in part at least because Harvard awards financial aid to wealthier students than most colleges. Other colleges call that merit scholarships, and some may award it almost as broadly.</p>
<p>Is it really true, though, that Harvard consistently undercuts all its reasonable competitors by that much? I don’t doubt that Harvard will often beat, say, Kenyon or NYU, by a considerable margin in the net price competition. But Yale, Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Stanford, MIT, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore? The most recent kid I know who was accepted essentially everywhere got a meaningfully lower net price from Swarthmore and Dartmouth than from Harvard and Yale (and Harvard came in at a higher price than Yale).</p>
<p>I don’t think we are questioning, exactly, whether there are no legitimate reasons to want to go to one of a limited number of high quality, super-selective colleges. I think we are questioning, appropriately, the proposition that Harvard is obviously better than anywhere else in the world for any particular student. It isn’t. And Yale and Stanford aren’t, either.</p>
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<p>For our financial situation (lots of need-based aid), and assuming the Net Price Calculators are accurate, Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford all have about the same cost. Add $30,000 over four years for the next cheapest school (Yale). And add another $15,000 to that for the next school.</p>
<p>Of course, this is just one data point.</p>
<p>Interesting discussion. I have two sons who were accepted to Harvard. Consistent with Snarlatron’s original post, throughout High School neither was focused getting into Harvard. In fact, my oldest decided to apply after a teacher strongly encouraged him to in November of his senior year. Both were focused on learning, did well in their public high school and were very active outside of school in areas of their choice. One decided to attend Swarthmore, it’s been a great fit for him. The education has been terrific, the work load heavy and the interaction with professors amazing. The other will attend Harvard. For us, Swarthmore cost $8,000 a year more than Harvard, Williams would have been $9,000 a year more. Middlebury $18,000 a year more. In our experience, Gibby is correct that Harvard’s FA was the best. However, Swarthmore’s cost is very reasonable and considerably less than the FAFSA EFC. It’s all part of the decision process. </p>
<p>My case might be a bit isolated, but I received a LL from Harvard and began talks with the aid office a few weeks ago (which ceased about a week after; they couldn’t give me anything official, but they were still very helpful in working with me). H and Y both offered me (essentially) the exact same package.</p>
<p>If I recall correctly, I’ve heard a lot of people say that Pton gives the best aid. </p>
<p>^^^^^ After running the NPC for all my schools, Princeton would definitely offer the best deal, followed very closely (too close to even matter) by Stanford.</p>
<p>It’s not clear to me why originality is a virtue when you’re choosing a favorite college. It is often smart application strategy to include undiscovered gems on your list, but we’re not talking about application strategy. There are a lot of good reasons why Harvard or another very popular college might be a student’s first choice. I don’t see any merit in swimming against the stream for the sake of “originality.” </p>
<p>If you like pepperoni, you like pepperoni. A lot of other people like it, too – so what? It’s foolish to get anchovies instead because someone thinks you’re “unoriginal.”</p>
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It’s not about liking pepperoni, it’s announcing that you plan on marrying Katy Perry; a plan that shows little relation to much research or reality. It is about the tell. When student starts blabbing about getting into an “Ivy League” or how Harvard is their dream school, I immediately know two things: 1) they know very little about college admissions 2) They will never be admitted to any of these schools. When a student starts talking about Reed or Bates, I know on the basis of their distinctive interest that they have informed themselves and probably stand a good chance of going to those schools. I didn’t start this thread to make anyone feel bad. Some kids, to have this process be worthwhile, need to take off the blinders, get informed, and wake up to reality. They will ultimately be happier and find a good fit as opposed to chasing a unicorn over a rainbow.</p>