<p>Stanford engineering is WAY stronger than Harvard's, and probably IIT's as well.</p>
<p>Uhm wrathofgod64, I don't think that's at all debatable.
Consider this:
IIT draws from India only, and if we're only considering IMO performance and similar things, the US beats India. In fact, I'll even give you the names of 6 Harvard students w/ gold medals at IMO (all from the US, too). Looking back, India has had about 3 or 4 total in the last 5 years.</p>
<p>(Just for Kicks)
Gabriel Carroll, Tiankai Liu. Ricky Liu, Ian Le, Tony Zhang, Alison Miller</p>
<p>I'm pretty sure that these 6 could take on pretty much anybody in (olympiad) math, and I'm not even mentioning the large number of foreign IMO'ers.
I think the issue here, however, is not IMO results, which don't necessarily translate into real mathematical progress. But I'm just sayin, harvard would kick IIT's ass in this sort of thing.</p>
<p>wrathofgod64,</p>
<p>I agree that the average student at IIT could be better at math than an average H student. But consider this, Harvard college is liberal arts and offers a well-rounded education, unlike IIT. I'm sure if you compare an average student at Caltech or MIT with that of IIT, it's hard to say which one would be better at math.</p>
<p>Also, America has MANY prestigious and world renowned universities besides Harvard. So the top academics aces are not only attending harvard and the academic talents are very spread out among all the top insitutions; no school has an absolute advantage in the academic quality of students. Whereas in India (I don't know Indian school well), it seems that IIT is the one every wants to go to. And again, India has 1 billion people... not much of a fair comparison, is it?</p>
<p>I'm not comparing the average IIT student with the average Harvard student, that's not really fair for either. I'd consider comparing the average math major at IIT with the average math major at Harvard. My belief is that the Harvard major would be stronger. </p>
<p>I gave IMO evidence. The number of IMO'ers at Harvard, drawn from all over the US and the strongest of foreign nations, is large. The IMO tends to predict the quality of math research for a competitior too. (For example, a third of Field medal recipients (which is the highest prize for a mathematician) were IMOers.) Now, if the best students in India are not as good as the best students in the world at math in their senior years, why should they be later?</p>
<p>The best math students in India don't necessarily study to participate in IMO. The majority of these kids focus on the JEE (IIT entrance exam) at a very early age. Performance for Indian Students at IMO means prtetty much nothing if they are trying to get into IIT. </p>
<p>It is important to remember that getting into IIT is dependent on the JEE results only. An indian kid could be graduating from high school as a 4-time IMO gold medalist, but if he performs poorly on the JEE, he doesn't get in. </p>
<p>Kids in America prepare for the competition because it will guarantee them a spot in a top US college. A lot of Indian IMO'ers end up in the states at schools like Harvard and MIT. The US team may perform better, but many indian IMO kids go to the best schools in America too. Just something to think about.</p>
<p>Jacobian, that was a rash and ignorant comment.</p>
<p>You actually just proved yourself wrong. Kids enter the IMO because they are talented in math. If what you are saying is true, then all kids from India can do is memorize a damn entrance exam and don't have any learning capacity at all.</p>
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An indian kid could be graduating from high school as a 4-time IMO gold medalist, but if he performs poorly on the JEE, he doesn't get in.
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</p>
<p>If he is a 4-time IMO gold medalist, and fails the JEE, he would get into Harvard and life would be 10000x better anyways.</p>
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Kids in America prepare for the competition because it will guarantee them a spot in a top US college.
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</p>
<p>This is absolutely wrong. The amount of work necessary to even approach that kind of level is always due to deep love for math. A good estimate is that the amount of time spent necessary to become an IMO gold-medal level is about the same as that needed to get an actual math major. No student would work that hard with just a college in mind. This also explains why all IMO-ers tend to become mathematicians (or at least major in math.)</p>
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The majority of these kids focus on the JEE (IIT entrance exam) at a very early age. Performance for Indian Students at IMO means prtetty much nothing if they are trying to get into IIT.
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</p>
<p>I know, and I think this reflects badly on IIT, if anything.</p>
<p>
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An indian kid could be graduating from high school as a 4-time IMO gold medalist, but if he performs poorly on the JEE, he doesn't get in.
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</p>
<p>I should mention only a few kids (as in less than 5) have been 4-time gold medalists at the IMO, so the odds an Indian has done it are low. (For example, this year, India had a silver medal, a bronze medal, and three honoroble mentions, while the US had 4 golds and 2 silvers.) But in any case, this kind of student would have good chances at Harvard, which goes as evidence toward my claim that the average Harvard math major is stronger than the average math major at IIT.</p>
<p>Anyone who claims that IIT is the "best" university over Harvard needs to get a reality check. Although IIT has a 2% acceptance rate, you are talking about a pure meritocracy that doesn't take into account things like leadership, debate, or social skills. Although they may be able to solve math or science problems faster than your HYPSM student, their ability to utilize it in a social setting will be severely weaker than say a MIT or CIT graduate. </p>
<p>What makes Harvard great is its $22+ billion dollar endowment (#1 in world. nearly double that of #2, Yale), its huge library system (#1 in world as well), its world renowned faculty, its rich and dynamic history, and among other things, its great facilities. Until IIT can make claims to not only having the BEST of India but being able to train them, it will and should not be seen as the worlds best (top 10). Remember, just because its students go on to lead very lucrative and successful careers in their fields, it doesn't mean that their university was what gave them the knowledge and skills to achieve those careers. It can only mean that these students are SO brilliant that they can take whatever they are offered and make the best of it. Imagine if these students went to Harvard or MIT. I will guarantee you that all these amazing students would have done even better in their careers. </p>
<p>If you want a country that TRULY has stronger math and science than the United States, take a look at China. China has won the IMO and quite a few other science olympiads for many years in a row now. Go take a look at our top graduate schools (Berkeley (i live in berkeley), Harvard (going there), MIT (coulda gone there), Stanford) and you will notice that the math and science departments are FILLED to the brim with Chinese students. Anyone who understands upper-division math will notice that the early math proofs are all done by Europeans, but as they get more advanced and modern, you find more and more Asian and especially Chinese mathematicians solving these rigorous proofs. </p>
<p>On the other hand, although India's poor infrastructure and high poverty rates can help attribute to this, Indian students have by in-large stayed out of the major math and science research scenes. Also, India's strict religious aspect (Hinduism and some Muslim) can also hamper scientific research due to a very closed-minded and rote-based education and upbringing. Are Indian students strong in math and science? Yes I am sure they are, but they are by no means the best in the world.</p>
<p>BTW: Just winning the IMO will not get you into a top college. You better have the grades to go with it as well.</p>
<p>I agree with every comment. Not so sure about the math major at Harvard vs IIT because it seems completely subjective to make such a statement based on simply on IMO. As far as social skills, and the multidimensional aspects involved with a Harvard education, IIT doesn't compete. The speaking ability and well-roundedness offered by a US training will in fact be superior to IIT. But in no way can this be said for all cases. After all, about 1/3 of the silicon valley has an IIT mind running it. So the entrepreneurial skills and creativity of an IIT student is still on par. I am in no way trying to say one school is in fact better than the other. The point of this thread was to in fact just throw the idea that there is more than just the Harvard's, MIT's and Stanford's. Strong educational systems, and great students lie further than the the realms of the US borders. I just though this would be an interesting discussion which it has most certainly proven to be. To each his own.</p>
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But in no way can this be said for all cases. After all, about 1/3 of the silicon valley has an IIT mind running it.
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<p>Source?</p>
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but as they get more advanced and modern, you find more and more Asian and especially Chinese mathematicians solving these rigorous proofs.
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<p>This isn't true. It's been noted that among major research publications, the number of Asian articles is a minority. Arguably Russian and American researchers produce the most. Many, however, guess that there will be a great increase in Chinese mathematicians, partially due to the competitive mathematics success of China.</p>
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Not so sure about the math major at Harvard vs IIT because it seems completely subjective to make such a statement based on simply on IMO.
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</p>
<p>This isn't the SAT. This is one of the world's most difficult and rigorous competitions. Each problem is basically a research problem in its own right, and there are numerous examples where research mathematicians cannot solve the problem themselves. This is what makes IMOers so desirable.</p>
<p>The remark about the AVG math major at Harvard vs. IIT has nothing to do with IMO results (avg being the key word). In no way was I referring to the test itself as a subjective matter, but using it to compare avg students in a specific dept (math) almost is. </p>
<p>I completely understand how hard this exam is and can certainly appreciate its level of sophistication. I am taking the Putnam Exam this fall and am familiar with such rigorous and creative problem solving. The U.S. IMO team is better than India in their own right (more medals etc), but to use this fact to say the average math major at Harvard is better than the average of IIT because the US IMO team is better than the Indian IMO team is simply foolish. Who would boost better math students (or even physics and chemistry for that matter) in general are not completely obvious. </p>
<p>It should be stated that IMO has no bearing on the actual curriculum and rigor of either of these schools. Likewise, the average math major at either schools didn't participate in IMO so it is not fair to compare them.</p>
<p>This thread reeks of ethnic pride and psuedo-nationalism. </p>
<p>Saying that China is "better than" India, or America, or whatever, is useless. </p>
<p>None of you have any data on actual achievement so why debate all this?</p>
<p>Someone in this thread stated that "American students study for the IMO because they know that it will guarantee them whatever college they want".</p>
<p>This isn't true; in fact, I know a US IMO gold medalist and another non-international USAMO winner who were both wait-listed by Harvard last year. </p>
<p>And yes, the top Harvard math students would make a mockery of their IIT counterparts. </p>
<p>Post any five IIT math students you would like, and I'll pick any five Harvard students.</p>
<p>how do you know that they will make a mocker of their IIT counterparts? any statistical evidence to prove that your so-called intelligent harvard guys are innately smarter than IIT kids? The average IIT kid IS better in math than the average harvard kid primarily because of the focus on engineering and math. </p>
<p>And yes, students who study 16 hours a day for JEE many times could care less about IMO cuz thats not getting them anywhere. so unless they are aiming at non-indian universities, IMO is pretty useless for them.</p>
<p>IIT minds are flourishing in the silicon valley, and is well represented. </p>
<p>But it takes a little more than just number crunching skills to cut it. In response to some previous assumptions: To say that students don't develop other necessary skills outside of math, science, and technology at IIT is much uninformed. The top business consulting firm in the world (McKinsey) is headed by an IITian.</p>
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any statistical evidence to prove that your so-called intelligent harvard guys are innately smarter than IIT kids?
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</p>
<p>No one is claiming this. The statement is that the average math major is stronger at Harvard then at IIT. The basis of comparison I introduced is the IMO competition, and personally I stand by the fact that this is a useful basis. Statistically, IMO students produce a third of Fields medal recipients (the highest mathematical prize, equivalent to the Nobel prize for non-mathematicians.) We can't make any direct claim without looking for math competitions, so IMO is a great tool. In any case, the math research that comes out of Harvard easily trumps that of IIT (note for example that Harvard has several Fields medalists, while IIT has none.) Basically, Harvard attracts math minds from all over the world, including from traditional breeding grounds of mathematicians (as Eastern Europe and Russia), but also from India. Meanwhile, IIT can only take the best math students from India, and due to the JEE, it can lose out on these as well because of the promise of foreign institutions.</p>
<p>
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And yes, students who study 16 hours a day for JEE many times could care less about IMO cuz thats not getting them anywhere. so unless they are aiming at non-indian universities, IMO is pretty useless for them.
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</p>
<p>The IMO isn't a standardized tests that people take for "use." It is a competition with a respected tradition. The top contestants share a deep love for mathematics. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a standardized test. If indeed all of India's mathematicians cannot further their development because they study 16 hours a day for an essentially useless test, then that's all the more to IIT's loss.</p>
<p>EDIT: Thanks for that source Jacobian. I can agree that IIT has one of the best engineering schools in the world. On the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree.</p>
<p>Fair enough, Tetrahedron, we each have a valid stance. Like I said before though, my intent for this thread wasn't to start an "IIT vs. Harvard" debate. I only was trying to open the idea that the world doesn't end at Harvard, and to learn about other great universities in the world of similar calibur. There are other places in the across the globe (namely in Asian and European countries) doing just as phenomenol things and training the students of tomorrow (especially in applied sciences). I think we can agree that the students at Harvard and IIT are top-notch and will shape the future of this world.</p>
<p>What about the rest of the world's greatest universities?</p>
<p>Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Tokyo, Moscow, IIT are all on par with HYPMS in terms of education. Oxford, Cambridge - definitely in prestige as well.</p>
<p>I'm just going to say that Harvard, by far, is the most prestigous institution in the world to go to, but there are a few other schools in the world (e.g. Tokyo, Bejing, IIT, Oxford, etc.) that can probably compete with it in terms of some fields of academics. </p>
<p>Also, in response to the current "people from X college own Y% of companies" debate: I think that has much more to do with the intellect and streetsmartness of the individual person rather than the institution they went to. Sure, it would definitely help to say you come from a prestigous university, whether it'd be Harvard or IIT, but the ultimate deciding factor, much like college in general, is how you do in the college vs. others.</p>