Is Harvard the Best in the World? I think not...

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
81

<p>No point in debating with you when you pull 'facts' out of your $#@ but then expect me to go to India and interview people in IIT to get proof for my statements.</p>

<p>If you lived in an isolated area in India, would you even know that you're talented at math. They don't have competitions similar to IMO in India so thats why most of them don't know about international competitions. Most schools in India don't have clubs etc(maybe ping pong if lucky) so they don't have awareness. Here, most high school kids who care about college know about some competition or another whether it be siemens, intel, math, computer science, poetry, etc. </p>

<p>The financial security is something that anyone that has visited india can attest to. Since I go there every other year for a month, I think I have more knowledge than you in this particular issue. Also, go back to the beginnings of this post where someone posted an article. It has the facts that you oh so desire from me but can't provide your self.</p>

<p>I'll admit I'm not the greatest debater, but that doesn't make you right.</p>

82

<p>exactly confidential, if youve never been to india, you dont know what your talking about.. If you live in america you are accustomed to a life by relative standards "luxury". Unless you live in an average house hold, and go to indian school you can NEVER know what they strive for.</p>

83

<p>I love the reasoning that IIT supporters are using in this thread; "My little cousin who lives in India has never heard of the IMO!"</p>

<p>That's absolutely terrific, but then again, about 90% of American high school students haven't either. But among math students, the competition is very widely known. </p>

<p>And it's ridiculous to state that India's best math talents don't compete in the IMO; India is traditionally a top 10-15 country in the event.</p>

<p>Moreoever, iv4me's list is laughable. He included such titles as "IBM Fellow" and "Vice Chairman" in his post. In a few cases, he didn't designate any position at all for the corresponding name. Are we left to infer that these people are the nighttime janitors or security guards at the company?</p>

<p>Incidentally, my father is a vice chairman at a company too. He is by no means considered one of the more prestigious alumni of his university. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, if you will note courer's post, every single individual named was the CEO, founder, or president of a major international company, not an above average employee/ manager of said business.</p>

84

<p>Since I apparently enjoy pulling stuff out of my ass oh-so much, here's some more.</p>

<p>
[quote]
They don't have competitions similar to IMO in India so thats why most of them don't know about international competitions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really? I suppose you haven't been to</p>

<p><a href="http://www.kalva.demon.co.uk/indian.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.kalva.demon.co.uk/indian.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>where you can find the last 10 years worth of Indian olympiads. It seems India also has national olympiads for informatics, biology, etc... </p>

<p>This website has a little more info:</p>

<p><a href="http://orissagov.nic.in/sciencetechnology/ima.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://orissagov.nic.in/sciencetechnology/ima.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Apparently there are also Junior and Regional Olympiads. There are also Summer and Winter camps for math training for students (the US only has a summer camp.) But the best thing is the Rural Mathematics Talent Search Programme. Its point:</p>

<p>"correct this imbalance Institute of Mathematics and Applications conducted a rural mathematics Olympiad for children of class VI of exclusively rural areas attending Government schools. About 5000 children from all over Orissa took the test on the 21st September 2003. Of these about 100 children were selected for advanced training in Bhubaneswar one third of that number from Western Orissa, one third from South Orissa and one third from the coastal Orissa."</p>

<p>And this is all in just one province of India.</p>

<p>Also,</p>

<p><a href="http://www.123iitjee.com/olympiad.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.123iitjee.com/olympiad.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>details Indian teams to international olympiads in the last few years. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.hbcse.tifr.res.in/olympiads/Data/ObjectType/stage1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hbcse.tifr.res.in/olympiads/Data/ObjectType/stage1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>provides information for the physics, biology, and chemistry olympiads, their stages, training camps, international teams.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/14/stories/2005071416541200.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/14/stories/2005071416541200.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>shows, for example, a newspaper article about an Indian IPHO team. So awareness could certainly exist through such newspaper articles. Certainly in the country I'm from, I didn't have a computer, but I was more than aware of our IMO results from local newspapers.</p>

<p>Here's a quote from this article:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.iisc.ernet.in/insa/ch5.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.iisc.ernet.in/insa/ch5.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"About 25,000 students enroll for the first stage National Examination in Physics, a somewhat lower number than in other subjects."</p>

<p>So much for the idea that there are no regional or national competitions to create awareness. I will definately agree on one thing - that the culture of competition isn't as well established in India for math as for other subjects. (For example, in the US, almost half a million kids take the first level math competition leading to the IMO team.) On the other hand, for physics, the US has only about 5000 kids taking the first stage as opposed to 25,000. </p>

<p>
[quote]
If you lived in an isolated area in India, would you even know that you're talented at math.

[/quote]

Some of the world's best mathematicians lived in isolated areas. About Ramanujan:</p>

<p>"Ramanujan was born in his grandmother's house in Erode, a small village about 400 km southwest of Madras. When Ramanujan was a year old his mother took him to the town of Kumbakonam, about 160 km nearer Madras. His father worked in Kumbakonam as a clerk in a cloth merchant's shop. In December 1889 he contracted smallpox.
When he was nearly five years old, Ramanujan entered the primary school in Kumbakonam although he would attend several different primary schools before entering the Town High School in Kumbakonam in January 1898. At the Town High School, Ramanujan was to do well in all his school subjects and showed himself an able all round scholar. In 1900 he began to work on his own on mathematics summing geometric and arithmetic series. "
- from <a href="http://www-groups.dcs.st-"&gt;http://www-groups.dcs.st-&lt;/a>
and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Ramanujan.html.</p>

<p>It's obvious that I can't argue with you about generalizations without getting the same respons - that you've personally been to India (are Indian) and I'm not, so I can't understand. Fine. Create stereotypes. But I can certainly argue things I know about, and math happens to be one of them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
exactly confidential, if youve never been to india, you dont know what your talking about.. If you live in america you are accustomed to a life by relative standards "luxury". Unless you live in an average house hold, and go to indian school you can NEVER know what they strive for.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Okay, may I ask why you are even bothering to post here? If we cannot possibly know or understand, then why bother trying to convince us? Why not just leave the issue knowing you are right, and that we are wrong and cannot understand why? Altough, you seem to enjoy stereotyping all of us yet again - we all apparently live in the lap of luxury. I'm just curious, confidential, do you live in average household in India and go to Indian school?</p>

85

<p>tetrahedron, are you serious? You're using a story of a person who was born in the 1800's to prove an interest in mathematics competitions over a hundred years later? Get real. </p>

<p>HarvardAlum, there are just as many founders, presidents, and CEOs in my list as there are in yours. But this is nitpicking. There is nothing more I can do to convince you that IIT provides a better engineering education than Harvard. You can continue to underrate the value of an IIT education, and IIT students will continue to rise to the top of technology.</p>

86

<p>Um. No, I am answering the question of "being isolated means not being talented at math." Read my post before you criticize it.</p>

87

<p>Heh, this is a heated thread. Why does it matter though, which school is the best in the world? I'm sure students will always be biased towards their own school, since they actually studied there and experienced it firsthand. That matters more than what Times and Newsweek magazine publishes. If you end up doing nothing useful with your life, who the heck cares what school you went to? Therefore, it's all about the individual.</p>

88

<p>One thing I don't understand is the utility of posting this in a Harvard forum. </p>

<p>This would be the equivalent of stating that Google search is worthless and Yahoo! and MSN search are far superior in a Google forum.</p>

<p>It's just stupid.</p>

89

<p>It may not be the best, but I don't think there is "a best." It's up there, though. It's more of the name that makes it popular. For example, here, in South Dakota, people wouldn't know cornell from the community college down the street... But when you talk about Harvard, they know what that is.</p>

90

<p>Alright I'm going to jump in...</p>

<p>I see that tetrahedr0n is implying that just because the US does better than India on the IMO, it is far superior than India in mathematics. Well first off, even if the very "cream of the crop" in the US is better than that of India's, as the IMO results suggests, then that doesn't mean that the average IIT student is more mathematically inclined than the average Caltech student persay(I'm not even going to use Harvard as an example because it is not a tech school primarily so the average IIT student would CRUSH the average Harvard student anyway). IIT draws many more applicants of far more quality than Caltech does. This maybe because IIT stresses solely on it's entrance exam scores rather than including personal qualities, EC's, etc. like Caltech does, but I think this just reflects badly on the American educational system more than anything else. MIT and Caltech are sadly letting the truly gifted, mathematically and scientifically, slip away from their grasp in their aspirations to find a more "interesting and well-rounded" individual.</p>

<p>My point is tetrahedr0n, that one who is truly committed to being a future Mopper/IMO'er doesn't ahve time to partake in extracurricular activities like Caltech and MIT demand of them. Thus, they face the possibilty of rejection from these schools. However, IIT embraces all those who meet it's stringent entrance exams cutoffs, making it a haven for purely math/science geniuses. The truth is the average IIT student would wipe the floor withe the average Caltech student in the IMO, Putnam, or whatever if there was ever a schoolwide participation of such contest administrations.</p>

<p>However, only the "cream of the crop" in MIT, Caltech, IIT, etc. are willing to partake in these math competitions, so the results are biased and they do not accurately reflect the coherent ability of any of these instititutions. hence, the IMO/Putnam are not a good measure of any institution's mathematical aptitude.</p>

<p>Besides, brilliant mathematicians in India could care less about these trivial competitions. They want to focus on succeeding in IIT, getting a good graduate education later in the US perhaps, and then starting a multinational software company which might one day employ you tetrahedr0n.</p>

<p><a href="http://jee.iitm.ac.in/Mmaths.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://jee.iitm.ac.in/Mmaths.php&lt;/a>
Makes the AIME look kind of tame doesn't it tetrahedr0n???</p>

91

<p>I happened to attend Caltech for grad school, and what you just wrote about the school is the most inaccurate, fallacious piece of nonsense I've ever read on this board.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]

scores rather than including personal qualities, EC's, etc. like Caltech does, </p>

<p>Caltech are sadly letting the truly gifted, mathematically and scientifically, slip away from their grasp in their aspirations to find a more "interesting and well-rounded" individual.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Okay, just admit it, you're a goofy sixteen year old who knows nothing about Caltech (or probably any other university mentioned in this thread either). In their admissions criteria, CIT looks primarily at math and science accomplishments, not whether someone is "interesting and well-rounded". </p>

<p>Why don't you visit the Caltech board and repeat your statements about the university there? (There's even an active admissions officer there) </p>

<p>After that, come back and tell us what they think of you.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Besides, brilliant mathematicians in India could care less about these trivial competitions. They want to focus on succeeding in IIT, getting a good graduate education later in the US perhaps, and then starting a multinational software company which might one day employ you tetrahedr0n.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Perhaps someone might take you seriously if you weren't a juvenile little kid making up facts and figures about universities you know nothing about and likely never will, as they will all deny you admissions.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
<a href="http://jee.iitm.ac.in/Mmaths.php%5B/url%5D%5B/QUOTE%5D"&gt;http://jee.iitm.ac.in/Mmaths.php

[/QUOTE]
</a></p>

<p>Those are easy, mechanical problems that any half way decent math major in the US would solve instantly. </p>

<p>Moreover, comparing them to the AIME is silly; not only is the AIME a piece of cake for any MIT/Harvard/Princeton etc. math major, but the AIME tests mathematical ingenuity and problem solving, while the JEE tests memorization skills and talents for engineeringmajors.</p>

<p>The fact that the test is for math majors underscores how poor ITT is in the mathematics and exact sciences.</p>

92

<p>harvardalum98, u got into Caltech for grad school? wow. That DEFINITELY shows that IIT is better :p</p>

<p>Anyway, the fact is that the average math major entrant in Harvard would bomb the JEE. Its a darn fact. And contradicting to your personal experience, my dad got his job as Samsung VP more because of his IIT bachelors and MTech than on his PhD from the US. The research methodology that is taught at IIT is the one that makes the person more valuable.</p>

93

<br>


<br>

<p>No one gets a VP job at a major corproration based on where they got their BS degree, not IIT, not Harvard, not anywhere. That's like saying that you got into a certain PhD program because of where you went to kindergarten. </p>

<p>VPs are usually at least 20 years beyond their bachelors. By time you are that far along in your career you get jobs and promotions based on your job experience, talent, and personal connections.</p>

94

<p>Just because a school has a very low acceptance rate doesn't make it a better school...
A lot of people apply to ITT because, well, a) there are a lot more people in India to begin with and b) there are less schools. </p>

<p>My parents told me that when they applied to college, the acceptance rate was 4%, but that's because EVERYONE took the test, whether they were qualified or not. (This is China, btw)</p>

95

<p>Well a larger percentage of chinesse children get a decent education compared to India. rural india has no education and thats why certain classes in india have very few people apply to iits compared to other classes.</p>

96

<p>"Anyway, the fact is that the average math major entrant in Harvard would bomb the JEE"</p>

<p>It is pretty obvious that the average math major entrant would bomb the JEE because the JEE tests mathematics, chemistry, and physics. There is no reason why a math major entrant would be knowledgeable about physics (unless he's doing applied math), let alone chemistry. He may know about these subjects, but there's no real need for him to. Not only that, but most people would bomb the JEE simply because they haven't studied for it, in contrast to many Indians who spend hundreds of hours studying for the exam. Unless a person has studied the subject, he will obviously fail a test on the subject. It would be like having a geologist taking the SAT II Literature test.</p>

97

<p>
[quote]
I see that tetrahedr0n is implying that just because the US does better than India on the IMO, it is far superior than India in mathematics.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In fact, I am implying that because Harvard attracts the best IMOers from all over the world as opposed to IIT (which at best attracts the ones from India), Harvard's math majors will be superior. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Besides, brilliant mathematicians in India could care less about these trivial competitions. They want to focus on succeeding in IIT, getting a good graduate education later in the US perhaps, and then starting a multinational software company which might one day employ you tetrahedr0n.</p>

<p><a href="http://jee.iitm.ac.in/Mmaths.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://jee.iitm.ac.in/Mmaths.php&lt;/a>
Makes the AIME look kind of tame doesn't it tetrahedr0n???

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Call the IMO trivial. Now please ask a research mathematician of the level the problems on the IMO, and see what he has to say. No, this doesn't make the AIME look tame. These are cookbook mechanical problems that anyone can solve with some practice. It makes the AIME look far far harder than it is. Please learn about something before you talk about it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Anyway, the fact is that the average math major entrant in Harvard would bomb the JEE. Its a darn fact.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If a math major would take the math portion, I'm willing to bet they'd do quite decently. Unlike you, I'm not going to state that it's a "darn fact." (I really like people who think their opinons are facts.)</p>

98

<p>harvardalum98, please refrain from labeling me based on my age and coaxing me by making threats into believing that posts made on an internet forum will affect my chances at any university. Maturity should reflect one's age.</p>

<p>Besides, you haven't shown me any concrete evidence to prove that my assumptions are astray about Caltech, or anything else I metioned in that post.</p>

99

<p>In my personal OPINION, IIT has more of an impact for its students than Harvard does for its students. In US, there are schools comparable to Harvard(maybe not same, but similar). In India, there is NO school comparable to the IITs. I say this because I'm trying to show you my point that most students at IITs look at IIT as a way of financial security. Since IITs costs are severely subsidized, it makes college affordable to many indian kids. If they don't get into IIT, most of them have to take huge loans because they cannot pay ridiculous costs for regional colleges(a few laks but u can check up on that). And once they get out of these regional colleges theres very limited opportunity to go abroad or make good money(theres a lot of these regional colleges). If they get into IIT, they will make many times more money and be a lot more financially stable. The top company in India(Infosys) hires 200 IIT grads every year. Also, there is a lot of opportunity for working abroad . Thus they are financially stable.</p>

<p>My final point is this. In America, it has yet to be proved that attending a 'better' institution will help you get more money. The argument is that a smart student who gets into Harvard, but then chooses to attend a state school etc. will not make a statistically signifcantly lower amount than if he/she attended Harvard. This is not the case in India. If you do not get into IIT and you're parents are not rich, you're pretty much stuck right there. You're going to be laks in debt out of college and there is absolutely no guarantee of getting a job from these colleges. In India, you have to have money to make money. That's why many Indians hope to live the America dream, a dream of the 'self-made man'. Actually many immigrants dream that dream. There is much more opportunity in this country and that is what attracts many high school students to study for the JEEs and test for IIT, so that they can have opportunities that are not available to them in India.</p>

<p>Summary:
Let's take a smart kid and put him in all four of these situations.
India: #1 IIT($700 a year) - Has a lot of opportunities. Abroad tech companies.. all top companies in India... arranged marriage is easy and will marry a girl from rich family and get dowry..good networking
#2 Regional Indian College(many times more than IIT) - Has to take loan of a few laks(not easy to pay back in india)... will struggle to find job and compete with many other students from all over india.. you make the most when ur young(save more) but since this guy is on loans that no go.. tougher time getting good marriage etc.
America:#3 Harvard($40G w/o finaid) - Lots of opportunities.. can get into great grad schools etc.. good networking.
#4 State School(20G w/o finaid) - Will probably graduate in honors program with great GPA(this guy got into Harvard).. will have a lot of opportunities... comparable if he went to Harvard(remember there is no evidence to prove against this)</p>

100

<p>"In India, you have to have money to make money. "
this is why india is extremely corrupted .</p>