is it all true???

<p>What bothered me most when choosing between Harvard and Princeton was, in fact, the administration’s apparent attempt to de-emphasize eating clubs and partying in general. A dean of a college shouldn’t try and play social engineering games. When you are eighteen years old, you have lived with parents for all those years. The prospect of Mother Malkiel or Officer Rapeleye telling me what I should or should not be doing with my own free time was not exactly appealing. Reminds me too much of high school, and students who have the option of choosing between Princeton and some of its peers are smart enough to make their own decisions and certainly do not want to be infantilized. </p>

<p>Also, why make the thesis mandatory? At every other university, you have the option of writing a thesis and getting involved in research. As an individual, I see no benefit to being forced into doing so, though form an institutional perspective it does make sense.</p>

<p>TheMatrix is right - a lot of people are ticked off about the administration’s various attempts to curb partying (e.g. Public Safety no longer waits for noise complaints, they patrol dormitory halls), demonize Greek organizations (sending home letters to freshmen telling them basically not to rush), and make life as an eating club member less appealing (by refusing to renovate upperclass dorms and making nice upperclass dorms part of residential colleges).</p>

<p>The administration is also trying to change campus culture (the aforementioned stuff) by changing the type of kids they admit. They’re trying to cut down on athletes, kids who like attending sporting events, kids who are legacies, and other types of kids who have historically loved Princeton the way it is (the “Princeton type”) and integrate pretty smoothly into its current culture (partying and joining bicker clubs). The administration figures that if they admit different kinds of kids (kids who like learning for the sake of learning and kids who are really into the performing arts), they can get harder working kids who are more focused on academics and extracurricular organizations and are less interested in partying, drinking, and the eating clubs. This way, they can depopularize the clubs without fighting them and their alums openly (which would be much more difficult). Also, the current dean of admissions really wishes that Princeton wasn’t a Division I school (because it detracts from the academic environment and reserves spaces in each class for “less-qualified” applicants), and these sorta policies could help nudge us down that road.</p>

<p>However, the school is, in my opinion, making a mistake by trying to do too much at once (which is why people are speaking out against its actions). You can address inflated grades or you can address the composition of the student body, but to attempt to address both at once makes you run into a contradiction: on one hand, you want to bring in smarter, cleaner, more focused kids who’ll party less and study more. On the other hand, you want to give them fewer A’s than the supposedly less deserving and lazier students who came before them. This way, you drive away the kids who’ve historically loved Princeton (because you are implicitly telling them that their kind isn’t welcome anymore) and you’re driving away the kids you’re after (because, for the most part, people who care about academics care about getting A’s).</p>

<p>thanks guys! your answers arereally helpful :)</p>

<p>Grade deflation definitely deterred me from accepting Princeton’s offer of admission. So did the thesis requirement (I will probably do a thesis, but I’m not ready to make a commitment just yet). I had no idea that the administration was waging a War on Partying. Bad idea, that, because Princeton’s party scene is one of its main draws.</p>

<p>I don’t understand what all the moaning and groaning is about with regards to grade deflation.</p>

<p>If you are a mediocre thinker who submits mediocre work, you deserve a mediocre grade–which is now a very generous B+.</p>

<p>After having spent a year at an old, elite institution, I’ve come to realize that most of us lucky ones feel so damned entitled that we complain about the most stupid things without first appreciating the good intentions of our administrations and weighing both the positive and the negative consequences of their actions.</p>

<p>What is wrong with vision and change?</p>

<p>kwu, I will speak from a personal perspective on why I am deterred by grade deflation. </p>

<p>I intend to work very hard at whatever school I attend. In fact, I hope my dedication will be common among all the schools that I might I attend; my motivation won’t be affected by the grading system at the school.</p>

<p>Because of this and the fact that I will likely be attending graduate school of some form, I want the highest grades possible, even if they are inflated. There is simply a practical incentive to having a higher GPA.</p>

<p>if a law school’s gpa range is 3.7-3.9, they don’t want to accept too many people under the range. it doesn’t matter if you went to princeton, it doesn’t matter if you majored in physics, it doesn’t matter if your school explains the deflation with a cover letter. being out of the range hurts your chances.</p>

<p>Here’s the problem: at whatever top college you’ll likely attend, good grades will be given out based on the quality of your critical thinking and how much perceptiveness and creativity you demonstrate in your writing and during class discussions. </p>

<p>How much effort you put into a class won’t matter if your expressive abilities are mediocre relative to that of your peers. Your ability and potential may be superior to those of tens of thousands of students all over the country, but grades at a given institution are meant to compare you to your peers at that institution. I won’t argue that hard work and determination shouldn’t be duly rewarded. This isn’t about what you want: this is about what you deserve.</p>

<p>With regards to law school admissions: Harvard, Yale, Brown, and Stanford alumni/ae made up a third of students at Yale Law School at the beginning of the 2007-2008 academic year.</p>

<p>The median GPAs at those schools exceed 3.60, which means a majority of students at those schools enjoy a blanket of A-s and As on their transcripts.</p>

<p>A lackluster student who breezes through college at Yale and Harvard earning nothing but As and A-s despite doing a half-assed job will be in for a rude shock when he realizes the upper echelons of society are closed off to him despite his flawless pedigree and history of academic excellence.</p>

<p>Princeton shouldn’t be demonized because its administrators want to humble its students, reward true talent, punish mediocrity, and not lie to students. It should be praised for daring to stand out among the cowardly.</p>

<p>The senior thesis is the best part of Princeton. I promise. Well, that and the social life and the beautiful campus and the fabulous alumni network and the small classes. But you get my drift.</p>

<p>kwu,</p>

<p>I agree with your ideals about how Princeton’s lack of grade inflation should be viewed by admissions committees and students. But the fact that these ideals are not fully realized in practice is what deters me. You have not, in my mind, effectively countered ChoklitRain’s simple but accurate point.</p>

<p>kwu,</p>

<p>I think those kids at Yale Law will be fine - remember, YLS doesn’t rank and you’re graded on an Honors/Pass/Low Pass/Fail system, so even if the Pton kids get more Honors and the inflated kids got more Passes, they’re still gonna get hired b/c they did okay at Yale Law while other, just as smart, Pton kids might never get a chance b/c their ugrad GPAs were lower.</p>

<p>I will give you a hypothetical example, kwu, in order to further illustrate my point.</p>

<p>Bob and Fred want to major in physics because of their interest in the subject, but neither wants to pursue it as a career but instead want to go into law. Both students are of equal intelligence and ability.</p>

<p>Bob attends Stanford University, and Fred goes to Princeton University. They both are challeneged by the coursework to an equal degree, and both produce work of similar quality. </p>

<p>However, because of Princeton’s grading policy, that quality of work is worth roughly a B+ to Fred’s professor. Bob earns an A because of Stanford’s grade inflation. This occurrence continues in approximately the same fashion throughout the four years each attends. Fred ends up with a 3.4 and Bob a 3.75. </p>

<p>Bob and Fred have learned almost the same material and have acheived equal success in demonstrating their problem solving abilities. Both are deserving of the same grade by any objective measure. However, because of inequalities in the grading policies at different schools, they end up with meaningfully different GPA’s .</p>

<p>Both Bob and Fred apply to Yale Law School and have excellent LSAT scores (175+). The admissions officers charged with reviewing their applications are vaguely familiar with the deflation at Princeton and accordingly give an arbitrary increase in GPA of .1 to Fred in a well-intentioned attempt to level the playing field. Despite this increase, Fred’s grades don’t cut it against the rest of the applicant pool. Bob’s do, however, and he gets accepted.</p>

<p>In this situation, I cannot imagine a reasonable justification that grade deflation helped Fred in any way. In fact, it is clear that he was hurt by it.</p>

<p>However, there is the reasonable potentional that, for many students, the lower grades will serve as an impetus for a reinvigorated attitute toward schoolwork. This, unfortunately, is not a good argument; the stronger it seems to be, the more it falls apart in reality.</p>

<p>The more people who are truly incentivized to work harder by grade deflation, which, if true for many, would ultimately make deflation a positive for most, the more deflation is prevalent. The unadjusted class averages would continue to rise, only to be recurringly deflated in order to serve as a continued incentive. </p>

<p>This scenario, which would otherwise have a decidedly negative impact on students’ performance, is helped at the top by the fact that, supposedly, all students who “deserve” an A get one. But if this uniformly admirable response (the students’ working harder) exists, which is seemingly what the proponents of grade deflation argue, the local standard for what constitutes a “deserved” A is surely altered.</p>

<p>With that said, if newfound commitment to studying only occurs in few, then it is a good thing for those people. The general desensitization that results in situations in which many work harder in response to relatively low grades does not occur when few respond in that way. </p>

<p>It seems that grade deflation can be a good thing for a select group who is motivated by such things, assuming that the meritorious response is limited to this group. I can not see the merits, however, of a more generally applied argument that claims that grade deflation is beneficial to the majority of those to which it is applied in either a practical or intellectual sense.</p>

<p>But, what do I know? I’m only a rising junior in high school!</p>

<p>The senior thesis seems nice, though.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>That’s quite the straw man, though I’ll wait for anecdotes.</p>

<p>Hey now wait guys. I am too lazy to go back and find out who said it, but the fact that only 7 people in the 300 year history of Harvard have gotten 4.0s is extraordinary. I mean I am completely shocked by that fact. So, to a degree, maybe the grade inflation at these ivies is blown out of porportion.</p>

<p>that doesn’t mean there aren’t an absurd number of people getting 3.8’s</p>

<p>“Hey now wait guys. I am too lazy to go back and find out who said it, but the fact that only 7 people in the 300 year history of Harvard have gotten 4.0s is extraordinary. I mean I am completely shocked by that fact. So, to a degree, maybe the grade inflation at these ivies is blown out of porportion.”</p>

<p>I heard that 6 people have got it since 1986, which is when electronic records were first kept. It’s not extremely surprising, given that consistent A+'s requires amazing talent, dedication, and luck.</p>

<p>“that doesn’t mean there aren’t an absurd number of people getting 3.8’s”</p>

<p>The number of people who get 3.8’s is not absurd. Because some of the most intelligent and dedicated people in the world attend Harvard (and in percentages higher than that of any state university), it is by no means absurd that around half produce work worthy of a 3.45-3.5 GPA or higher (which the data indicate is the case) when taught by faculty who are leaders in their respective fields.</p>

<p>I really don’t believe that grade deflation makes an A more meaningful. I actually firmly believe it’s the opposite - the difference between an A and a B+ is so small (the top 20% vs top 36% of a class is usually only one of two questions on a final if it’s in a social science or science class) that I feel like my A’s might have been flukes and my B’s should have been A’s!</p>

<p>And kwu, you can’t make the same you’ll-get-into-a-good-grad-school-from-Princeton-no-matter-what argument with medical schools.</p>