College Confidential is admittedly a self-selecting group, but it seems rampant that high stat kids are being rejected from most selective schools.
In crafting a list of schools, a student is encouraged to include safety, match, reach. Is it worth the time and expense for a “traditional” kid with high stats to bother with visits, essays, subject tests and overall time invested these days? Or is a student who has no “spike” better off focusing on lower tier schools?
Assume that this student has no opinion either way about prestige. Also assume we aren’t discussing cost for this question (student either has wealthy parents or would qualify for need-based aid).
I can only say that my unhooked D20 was accepted to a T10 school with a 3.9 UW and 35 ACT. She ED’d so we won’t know if any of the other T40s would have gone her way, but I think she had a decent shot. But that was mostly as she looked long and hard for the right schools for HER - it wasn’t that her ECs were that extraordinary, but they were unique and she applied to schools that were a good fit for her. She didn’t just apply broadly to a bunch of “prestigious” schools and hope for the best.
Plenty of unhooked, high stats students get into T40 schools even though your chance of getting into a single high ranked school is still low. This is part of the reason students apply to so many school nowadays. It also seems like there is a difference between T20 and T21-40 admission rates. The general is advice is to apply to T40 schools but not only T40 schools.
You know how you can determine whether to “bother”? Look at your high school’s track record. Has anyone (unhooked) from your child’s HS ever been accepted to a T20 or T40 school? If so, how rare or common is it?
I think you have to be careful with those stats @brantly My kids’ school has the best “success” with Stanford. But that is purely because they pick up 1-2 athletes most years. If you’re not a recruited athlete, you could be very misled by looking at prior success. No one had been accepted to my daughter’s school in the previous 5 years - with 1-2 attempting most years - not a lot of data.
It is pointless - without fame, fortune, or a titanium-strong hook - to apply to a handful or two of T40s randomly or indiscriminately based on prestige or preferred location.
However, if you carefully research what the college is looking for, and you can show that you’re a match through all aspects of the application, then definitely take your shot.
There are plenty of stories on CC about unhooked “average excellent” kids getting in to top colleges. In almost every one of their stories, they credit their acceptance to having researched and showed the fit to both sides. I don’t recall a single one of those kids applying in a scattershot manner and then hoping the odds would favor them. It was all very deliberate, carefully planned and crafted.
It’s hard but not pointless. Someone has to get in, right?
I think where so many students get caught up is in thinking that they have a good shot. Not simply a shot but decent odds. Kids who have always been stand-outs in high school often don’t fully appreciate how, outside their community, they are not really that unusual.
I also think that many students don’t understand how important it is to have an essay that makes them come alive as a person. There are certain kinds of essays that LOTS of kids write that do little to show who they are. When your application looks like everyone else’s, it’s hard to get into the yes pile.
But to the other part of the OP’s question, it is really important to identify match or likely schools that would be a great fit. They could be a better fit than the super selective school. Finding those and treating them as desirable is something many students don’t do, which then makes them feel like they settled. It doesn’t have to be like that!
If you define top-40 through selectivity level (e.g., https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/40090323), then you will find at least some colleges that would be receptive to a well-crafted application from a qualified general applicant.
There are many kids of that description at Williams College. Every top college has many unhooked high stats kids!
It’s just that there also are many more unhooked (and even hooked) high stats kids who are waitlisted or rejected, too. That is what it means when admission percentages are low.
It has been our experience (among our relatives, kid’s friends, and children of our colleagues and friends) that early decision seems to improve the odds.
It certainly is not “pointless” to apply. The only way to be admitted is to apply. But it would be foolish to apply ONLY to such schools and not also to match schools and safety schools that one would enjoy attending. Craft a deep list, with colleges of interest at varying degrees of admissions difficulty.
“If you define top-40 through selectivity level (e.g., https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/40090323), then you will find at least some colleges that would be receptive to a well-crafted application from a qualified general applicant.” ~ @merc81
That’s another thing I have wondered. What do people mean in general when they say T40 or T20 or T15? Is there a commonly accepted source to find those rankings? I’ve seen USNWR referenced too. Obviously this can be subjective.
My unhooked high stats kid was accepted ED to a T20 LAC. There was nothing “crafted” about either her application or her classes / ECs - she was completely disinterested in hoop-jumping. Her very short Common App essay about grammar and fancy clothing was written in 30 minutes and submitted with no revisions, and it was exactly who she is.
I attribute her acceptance primarily to fit - she happened to be exactly the kind of kid the school she liked best attracted. Her overnight visit comment was that the majority of the students seemed to have the temperament she has - smart kids who liked to learn for the sake of learning and didn’t care much about what other people think of them.
Also in her favor:
she really wanted to go to a women’s college, which coincidentally meant she was looking at schools with higher acceptance rates than their ranking would otherwise imply
she lives in a less-represented state, where there might be one or two students from our state at the school at any given time
although the school theoretically doesn't consider need or interest, her ECs indicated minimal likely need and she did two-day visits two years in a row (so she knew what she was getting herself into, and was unlikely to transfer out due to poor fit, which is a concern for women's colleges)
I think there’s a big difference between T5 LACs / T20 universities and everyone else.
Define Unhooked? Is it the same for every school? For example, ED. If the ED acceptance rate is statistically more than EA or RD then is that considered a hook? I think it is. Even a 2% bump in odds for ED is boost considering some of these schools accept less than 10%.
Geography too. S20 has gotten better scholarships from schools further from home. Coincidence? He’s not applying to T20 schools but these are schools in the T25-60 range. We’re a donut hole family.
Is it worth it to apply to a T20 if you’re unhooked? Probably. You have to understand that it’s a lottery ticket to begin with. Try to research the schools, find what they’re looking for in an applicant and craft your app and essays for that school AS LONG AS you think the school is good fit in the first place. After that have a few safety/match schools on the list.
As a sophomore, this is the first year my D22 has paid attention to the admissions process. She has seen amazing kids from our high school get deferred from their dream school this year. The ones who devoted their teen years to doing everything possible to get into an Ivy. These kids are ridiculously accomplished, with perfect grades and SATs, university lab research, 10 APs/DE classes per year junior and senior year, state/national leadership or awards, built their own apps… they didn’t seem to sleep and spent most of their time striving and unhappy. My D22 feels that, so far, all that effort and misery doesn’t seem to pay off for them.
She’s an excellent student, with meaningful ECs, a 4.0 UW, great PSAT, and 6 APs so far because she enjoys it. But she hates the rat race aspect of college admissions, and the joyless drudgery that she has seen at the top. Her conclusion is that, whether or not it’s pointless, it’s not worth it to her to try. We have an excellent state flagship and her current plan is to ED there.
Early applications were down at MIT, Yale, and Harvard (amongst others) this year. I wonder if kids are just taking a more realistic view of the odds.
No, it’s not pointless. Such a student died have a chance with excellent grades, high test scores, taking difficult courses. And a sterling admissions package, but no hooks. I’ve known a number of kids who were so accepted.
It really comes down to the numbers. Look at the acceptance rates. When you are looking at single digit accept rates that include hooked applicants, and also understand that most applicants have excellent credentials, you understand that the chances are very low because there are simply not that many seats left relative to those applying. It’s really as simple as that.
But there are kids who are accepted each year without some hook. My youngest had no hook, and was accepted to two schools that tend are consistently listed on the USNWR as top 20. One you g woman I know was accepted to Amherst, her sister to Cornell— no hook and over represented minority. My neighbor who is Korean, has sons who recently graduated from Harvard, Yale and Wesleyan. No hooks other than top notch students. The one who went to Wesleyan was not accepted to HPY had better academic record than his brothers, the one everyone thought would be accepted to one of those schools. Sometimes there is no telling how these highly selective schools choose their students.
@hebegebe ,
Dare I say the “hook” is that your high school is clearly well known and respected among selective school admissions counselors. It matters. ?