Is it wrong to not want to overpay?

Parents Forum
21

Common wisdom is that pre-meds should save their tuition $ and go somewhere they are more likely to have a high GPA. And that’s fine.

I thought both my kids might go to grad school, but neither ended up having any interest. The youngest might eventually, but he’s a Navy officer now, and I imagine he could go on the Navy’s dime if he feels he needs more education. He had some pretty amazing experiences at Tufts including a funded research trip freshman year to Pakistan and India.

My older son was highly gifted, very nerdy. All I wanted for him was to go somewhere where kids like him would be thick on the ground and where he would probably never be the smartest kid in the room, which he was all through high school. He got that in spades at Carnegie Mellon. He had a large group of friends for the first time. He’s in his dream job making more money than we do. It was worth every penny. I don’t think any of the SUNY’s would have provided him a similar experience.

I went to Harvard undergrad, Columbia for grad school in architecture. I got at least two jobs on the name recognition of Harvard not Columbia. One was from a guy who’d gotten his architecture degree from a CSU and thought it was amusing he could hire someone who’d been to Harvard and he figured even though I knew nothing useful to him at the time, I’d probably be a quick study. The other was a firm in Germany with similar reasoning and who also told me that was what had stood out with my application. (That and my handwriting - I’d used a calligraphy pen for my cover letter.)

I do think college education has become way overpriced. I don’t know what the solution to that is. I think you should pay what you are comfortable paying. We were lucky that we’d just inherited enough money to cover the costs and we are generally frugal. (Cars are over 15 years old for example.) No regrets here.

22

When we say it “matters” where one goes to UG Let’s be clear on what exactly this means in reality. Here’s my list of what “matters”.

Better overall happiness. Nope.
Contentment. Nope.
Makes you live longer. Nope.
Makes you a better human. Nope
Makes you a better parent. Nope.
Makes you a better friend. Nope.
Eternal salvation. Nope.

Better health. Nope.
Healthy and living relationships. Nope.
Better and more satisfying friendships. Nope
Better financial future for parents. Nope
Better grad school placements. Big maybe
Better education. Big maybe and depends.
Richer friends. Probably.
Better work connections. Probably
Better jobs. Big maybe.
Better facilities. Yes in general.
Better faculty. Yes maybe. Depends.
Pride. Sure.
Parental bragging rights. Sure.
Better name recognition at parties. Sure
Costs more. In this case. Yes.
More intense academics. Maybe. Depends
Smarter and more interesting students. Sure
Better first job. Yes maybe depends
Better for Wall Street and consulting. Sure.
You have the money and kid loves x. Sure!

It’s so individually dependent on so many of these outcomes.

Why in the world would one feel guilty about not paying so much extra for the results generated above is beyond me.

Life’s short. Life is about love and family ultimately. So do your best and don’t sweat this so much.

I’ve never seen a college crest on a tombstone. Where did Jesus or Mohammed or Buddha or Ghandi go to college. Lincoln. Churchill or madame curie or Rosa parks? MLK or George Washington. Hamilton? Steve Jobs or sergey Brin. Mister Rogers or jim Henson. Joan of ark. Queen Elizabeth for that matter. Princess Diana - anyone?
It doesn’t matter really and won’t define you as a human.

There are good schools. Great schools and the best for each kid type. If you can afford any or the aid works of course go for it. But the question is about guilt when the goal posts aren’t so clear. The outcomes not assured. Make the best decisions but guilt shouldn’t be a factor.

If you have the funds and want to spend it. I’m all in with you. I personally spent more than needed. But not for the reasons most people quote. It’s not for anyone to say but don’t feel guilty. It’s a wasted emotion and not necessary.

23

We are a full pay family with only one child. We put no restrictions on price and D had costs ranging to just room and board all the way up to $73K/year. She chose an OOS public flagship honors program that fell in the middle range of COA.

Having gone to private universities ourselves, DH and I were worried about her decision but, I can honestly say that she made a super decision. She knows her profs well, including having weekly dinners with them, she has leadership opportunities as a peer mentor/TA, got an internship this summer, lined up a co-op for the next, did a month abroad in Italy, etc… And that was all within her first year.

What we have learned is that cost does not equal quality.

We have a friends whose daughter is about to start med school. She turned out much higher ranked programs for a full ride at small flyover state LAC. The support she got from her profs and the pre-med committee was outstanding. She had opportunities for research, publishing, and presenting at a national conferences. Lots and lots to be said about being the big fish in a small pond when it comes to med school applications. If she had chosen a different route, her LAC had tons of other options for her as well. Now her parents are in a position to help her pay for med school without having to take out a ton of loans or eat into their own savings.

24

You are always going to see plenty of post hoc rationalization in these threads - most kids are happy in college (not least because of their own post hoc rationalization that they made the best choice), so those parents who decided to pay for expensive private colleges will attribute that to better teaching and more opportunities, etc and those who opted for cheaper schools will attribute that to teaching and opportunities being just as good, and the money being available for other things later on. One side doesn’t convince the other, just like you won’t convince me that it’s better to buy a Tesla if I’ve just bought a Camry or vice versa.

Perhaps the most important thing to consider is whether for you, the money spent on education is no different to the money spent on other things, i.e. are you making a purely value for money judgement. Many people with that attitude will come down on the side of “no college is worth $300K” and may even give their kids a cash incentive if they choose a cheaper college. Or do you regard education as an invaluable life experience and consider that there’s nothing more important that you can give your kids. Most people with that attitude will conclude that an expensive, prestigious college is worth every penny and they’ll pay for it regardless of the price.

In terms of my own views, I certainly see the value of an elite education (for me personally my college education still impresses potential clients 30 years later). But I’m also not convinced it shouldn’t be subject to the same value for money considerations as buying a house or a car. So we decided to just give our kids the same amount of money in their 529s and let them choose (and in the end both took their cheapest options, one selected an in-state flagship and the other a full ride).

Incidentally the future of American education is going to be determined by whether a significant number of people who might originally have had the second view (of education as “invaluable”), adopt the first view (of education as “value for money”) as prices continue to rise. Historically an elite college education has been a Veblen good, in large part because many people had the second view. But at some point that will become economically unsustainable for many (perhaps most) US colleges.

25

While many here look at choices of good/better/best, aren’t there many students who are looking at bad/worse/worst in terms of affordability?

E.g. student with 3.4 HS GPA lives in rural Pennsylvania, where the nearest PASSHE or CSHE school is difficult to afford and a long commute, and does not have the majors s/he is most interested in. Going to a college with better match majors would mean adding residential living costs.

26

That’s a very good point, @ucbalumnus.

In the major metropolitan area where I live, the usual recourse of the academically talented but financially strapped is two years of commuting to the excellent local community college followed by two years at the flagship state university or at a private college that gives you a decent amount of financial aid.

But for those who live in remote places without good community colleges, this is not an option.

27

The whole premise of this thread is flawed. It has nothing to do with “overpaying” for college or being “fair” to your child because you didn’t attempt to save for your kids college (right?). And now you are trying to rationalize that college is too expensive (you will have to borrow the 160-180k?) and everyone ends up at the same place anyways, right?

College is expensive. We knew that 17 years ago when our first kid was born and planned accordingly (529). All the predictions in 2002 was that public colleges would cost 125-150k and privates 250k by the time these kids were of college age.

Let’s not lose sight of what the real issue is here, there is no “overpaying”because the money is not there, so chasing merit or cheaper college options is the only way to go for this family no matter if it’s fair or not to your child. It is what it is…

28

There are reasons to want private schools or other pricier options for some kids. My cousin’s son lives in a small town type area, goes to a mediocre high school. His family environment, though not dangerous , is absolutely not optimal for educational and academic advancement. Both of his parents (divorced) dropped out of high school and have jobs that barely make ends meet. Mom just remarried and step dad, though better off income wise had a mess of prior family issues and obligations.

Kids peers and even siblings not in the college crowd. Most take end up taking courses at local Community College. His siblings, 10 years older dropped out off high school. Dropping out is such a problem in the areas that an alternative high school was set up to deal with those who took that path.

Kid is bright. Has so far not succumbed to a lot of the pitfalls awaiting him. Taking all honors courses at the high school, has high test scores, like highest in the school on PSATs. Has stayed out of trouble. School is quite the commute for him—charter school, and his after school and part time job keep him very busy.

Really, given the scenario, I’d love to see him get into a small residential college. I think it would be the best chance for him. Going to the local CC, leaving with one of parents, likely the mother and stepdad because she lives closer to it, doesn’t look anywhere nearly as promising as going away to a whole new place. He’s never known much else really , other than short visits with his cousins including my kids and us who live whole other lives.

It would be worth some extra money if it could be found for a situation like that. Big State U, which is also an option, is a very big state school, doesn’t tend to meet full need, so he’d likely commute there too, meaning he’d need a car to make the 45min- hour drive to the school. He goes to a smaller highschool and is used to be big fish in small pond and the change to a big university seems might be tough. Other cousins have not had a good track record there. Most have dropped out; there are numerous straight to Big State, and community college/Big State combos that just didn’t happen.

Yeah, I d advocate spending money on someone like this to optimize his chances of making it through college rather than going through the usual trial by fire path set out for him. Any path, actual has its risks, but my spidey sense after many kids, their friends, other cousins says, small private college away best chance by far for this kid. I’m probably going to put some of our money where my mouth is on this kid if he can get a good situation.

@ucbalumnus, I wish there were a PASSHE or SUNY type alternative for this kid. Doesn’t exist here. Nearest choicest are a community college that is poorly run, and Big State U

29

@cptofthehouse Can the student’s guidance counselor help them out at all? Our guidance office has done wonders (at times) finding suitable places for similar kids, esp if teachers write really good LORs. Unfortunately, they don’t always come up with something, but many times they have. If you’re willing to toss in some money, it seems you could be on board the team with guidance if the student gives permission.

30

All cars get you to your destination, and almost any new car will come with a similar set of safety features. Most cars are functionally similar despite aggressive marketing from car companies to convince you otherwise. Some might say the same about colleges.

31

There are definitely many parallels with the healthcare system. The government can do a lot to shape the market since it controls so many of the purse strings. Initially that started with subsidies for both education and healthcare (loans, grants, tax deductions). Now both markets are moving tentatively towards a basic safety net (Obamacare, free community college in some states) though political differences remain. However politicians have shied away from imposing direct price controls on a widespread basis, although that happens in medicare and some state universities.

Most people acknowledge that healthcare is on an unsustainable path, they just disagree about how to fix it. The view is starting to emerge that education is on the same track. But there’s not the same degree of consensus about whether a college education is as much of a “right” as healthcare.

32

^^^ Like I said - great comparison. Some folks need as cheap as possible and nothing else matters. Some like a certain color or brand or size and have some $$ to contemplate options. Some figure out they like more bells and whistles and will pay more for whichever version they like even if there is a less expensive model of the same car/college.

I’ll admit, as I’ve aged I’ve fallen in love with bells and whistles on our cars so we pay for the model we like. It probably matches us that we didn’t go with strictly as cheap as we could have with our lads either. We also didn’t pay 70+K per year for any school (nor could we have). No regrets. I don’t want any super high $ vehicle either. I just like all the bells and whistles on our “average” Ford.

33

Ha …no. Your response was truly obnoxious. Whether we CAN pay has nothing to do with it. If we couldn’t spend the extra money, I wouldn’t have made the post.

I don’t feel undergraduate degrees are worth what they were worth when I went to school. My daughter will most certainly attend graduate school. I just can’t rationalize paying that much money for a four year degree when my personal experience (top 50 school on today’s rankings) didn’t seem to get me anywhere - see my post that my fellow law student classmates came from all different kinds of schools

34

All cars get you to your destination? Hm ok. What about the actual time spent on the trip? That’s something that needs to be considered. Going to college is not all about the end game.

Maybe we are paying a premium. But we did the legwork and I personally know kids at some of the bigger state universities near us and I know exactly what we are getting for our extra $30k per year. Honestly, for us, his school is more worth $73k than our local flagship is worth in-state cost. There is very little that is “the same” when comparing his school and our state flagship. Everything from class size to housing to the kids he will meet to the advising he will get. On and on. Not the same.

35

“I don’t feel undergraduate degrees are worth what they were worth when I went to school. My daughter will most certainly attend graduate school. I just can’t rationalize paying that much money for a four year degree when my personal experience (top 50 school on today’s rankings) didn’t seem to get me anywhere”

OP, as I noted above, there are two schools of thought on CC, “is a college value for money” vs “you can’t put a monetary value on the college experience”. No one is going to change their mind, which is why these threads usually devolve into an argument and then get closed.

You clearly fall into the first category. Don’t feel bad about it or let anyone else make you feel bad about it. That happens in real life not just on CC, plenty of people remarked unfavorably on the college my D chose to attend (on a full ride), whereas they were in awe of the kid whose parents took out a HELOC so he could attend Georgetown at full pay. And more than likely they’ll end up in a similar grad school or law school.

So I think the key thing here is not to get sucked into the prestige competition. Or as Mary Schmich put it “Don’t waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you’re ahead, sometimes you’re behind. The race is long and, in the end, it’s only with yourself.”

36

@homerdog No one says they are the same, but yes, all (new) cars can get one to their destination if that’s what’s desired. I’ve seen success (meaning jobs or grad school students want allowing them to be self sufficient) come from all sorts of colleges too, but that still doesn’t mean all colleges are the same within classes or outside of them any more than all cars are the same. Everyone “shopping” has to decide what features are important to them and at what cost.

The more money one has the more they are able to shop at all lots. Those on a budget need to look cheap or for “sales.” Financing may also factor into the equation for anyone not full pay.

37

@3kids2dogs I also think socaldad2002’s post was way out of line. Not sure where they got their impression from, but I haven’t seen it in your posts at all.

38

There are multiple variations of this thread every so often and there is no right answer.
It all comes down to your own family values, finances and what’s best for your kid.

39

My take is successful kids will be successful. They will find a way. More about the kid than the school. Now to finances. What is affordable to your family? What is worth it to your family? These are very subjective. WIll paying for a more expensive school affect your life? Retirement? Lifestyle? If not, do you think it’s just not worth it? Again, subjective.

We happen to think spending what we are spending to be worth it. Have the funds. Saved them for that purpose, so we’re using them. Completely get why others don’t feel the same way. It’s a very personal decision. (also come from a state school family with two older brothers. We’ve all done quite well, so again, successful kids will find a way.)

40

@socaldad2002 That is your perspective on the situation, but not everyone’s. We have not lived our life with the view that we owe our kids a certain type of college education. We have lived our lives and lived according to what we value as parents.

We didn’t choose how many kids to have based on how much we could afford to pay for elite college educations bc that is not how we view life or what we personally value. At all. We opted to have a lot of kids whom we provided with a very supportive home, a loving family, and a strong k12 education which has enabled them to pursue the adulthood they want.

We provide a minimal amt of support in order to help them achieve personal success, but providing them with a college education that meant altering our personal goals and values for our family, just plain not going to happen. If affordable college means that something is slightly less stellar for their adulthoodss, so be it. No regrets bc I didn’t have them with expectations of any type of glorified future, just a decent one where they can pursue what they want under their own efforts.

And they have. Personal responsibility has driven them to succeed beyond college at the level they desire.