Is Michigan *GASP* too easy to get admitted into???

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>Is Michigan "easy" to get admitted into, relatively speaking. It is definitely the easiest of the top 10-15 universities in the nation. But it is also far and away the largest. Michigan's Freshman classes have 6,000 students. The second largest university among the top 10-15 is Cal, with 3,500 Freshmen. Cornell is third with 3,000 Freshman. In short, Michigan's Freshman classes are almost twice larger than the second largest Freshman class among top 10-15 universities. Many people do not realize this because Cal has over 20,000 undergrads, but Cal's transfer classes are huge compared to Michigan's.</p>

<p>This said, it is important not to confuse ease of admission with quality of student body. The top 60% of Michigan's graduated with 3.8+ unweighed GPAs, top 5% class ranks, 1300-1600 SAT scores, etc... That's Ivy League material. I mean, the mid 50% SAT range for Columbia students (you seem to think that Columbia students are far "superior" to Michigan students) is 1310-1510, and Columbia takes the highest score from each SAT section, Michigan does not. This alone gives Columbia a superficial 40 point advantage. If Columbia limited SAT scores to best in one sitting, you would see a range closer to 1280-1480. And one must remember that 60% of Michigan is 14,000 undergrads. That's bigger than all Ivy League schools.</p>

<p>Only 25% of Michigan students are sub-par. That's where Michigan differs from say Columbia or Brown or Penn, whioch only have 5-10% sub-par students. But those students are usually not going to be taking classes with the better students. Many of them will probably not last more than 2 years at the university. So one must keep this in mind. As a matter of fact, the top 25% of Michigan students are equal to the top 50% of Columbia students. And the top 50% of Michigan students are equal to the top 75% of Columbia students.</p>

<p>In short, Michigan students are very gifted. Many people who do not think highly of Michigan are influenced and wrongly fooled by that 50%+ acceptance rate and slightly lower standardized test and as such, expect the students at Michigan to be weaker intellectually. Once a person has that negative association in mind, he/she will only look for evidence to support that assumption. But if you objectivally look at the student body at Michigan and at other top 10-15 universities, you will see that Michigan's student body is just as gifted and intellectually driven and challenging. It is not the quality of the student body that is different, but rather, the ease with which top students get into those universities. Top students probably have 1 in 5 chance of getting into Columbia whereas at Michigan, they have a 4 in 5 chance of getting in. But that doesn't change the fact that at both schools, the majority of the students are tops.</p>

<p>As for what makes Michigan a World class university? In a word; everything! Michigan has more top 10 departments than any university in the US. In the Social Sciences, Michigan is ranked in the top 3 nationally in Anthropology, Archaeology, Political Science, Psychology and Sociology and #10 or so in Economics. In the Humanities, Michigan is ranked or around the top 5 in the Classics, History, the modern Languages (most of them including Arabic, Chinese, French, German, Hebrew, Italian, Russian and Spanish) and Philosophy and in the top 10 or so in Creative Writing and English. In the Sciences, Michigan is ranked in the top 10 in Geology and Mathematics and in the top 15 in Biology, Computer Science and Physics. Many people try to defend their smaller universities by saying that those rankings are purely graduate level rankings. That's not true. Undergrads spend 50% of their undergraduate education in their major, taking advanced classes with key faculty that make those departments top ranked. Michigan is also ranked among the top 3 in undergraduate Business and around the top 5 in undergraduate Engineering. And at the graduate level, Michigan has top 10 schools of Architecture, Art, Dentistry, Law, Medicine, Music, Nursing, Pharmacy and Sports Management/Kinesiology. Michigan's endowment stands at $5 billion, tied for 6th in the nation with Columbia. That means Michigan can afford facilities and provide resources that only a handful of universities in the World can. From a research angle, Michigan is one of the top 5 in the World, spending close to a billion dollards annually. And Michigan allows Freshmen and Sophomores to engage in research activity through its growing UROP program. The research opportunities for undergrads at Michigan are actually pretty amazing. </p>

<p>Well, I could go on forever, but I would not listen to the naysayers. I have carefully studied universities for several years and I can tell you that Michigan is one of the top 10 or 15 universities in the US. Corporate recruiters think so, the academic world thinks so and graduate school adcoms think so.</p>

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<p>I'm a little concerned about how those "averages" are calculated. We have a school that is 35% OOS right - those OOS students have stats that are quite superior to those of the regular in-state student. I'd hypothesize that the actual "median" stats (GPA, test scores) etc. are lower than the reported averages, because the higher stats of OOS students drag the means up. This would explain the competitive university-wide averages while at the same time realizing the anecdotal evidence that a large (greater than 25%) number of UM undergrads are not qualified.</p>

<p>As far as resources are concerned (research money, access to faculty etc), I don't doubt that Michigan does very well; its problem is that is has to spread its resources over a much larger population. Even if Michigan's endowment is equal to Dartmouth's ( I use dartmouth just to be snarky), Michigan has to spread its endowment over 4 times as many undergrads. Because of the resulting drop in per-student resources, its easy to see why students who are actually going here now feel like Michigan has less to offer. </p>

<p>Finally, you cannot deny that a lower acceptance rate yields a superior class. Its simple supply and demand; at more prestigious schools, the adcoms get to be pickier about thier students because they have so many to choose from. This FORCES these admissions officers to look at the whole student, not just grades and scores. The adcoms admit classes at smaller schools that are designed a certain way, not just thrown together at the end of some byzantine formula. </p>

<p>I'm not saying that Michigan is bad, but I do argue that it has much to be desired, and is probably not deserving of the prestige it recieves...at least not for its undergraduate program.</p>

<p>Best
KB</p>

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<p>Not really KB, Chicago and Michigan always accept between 40 and 60% of their applicants, but their student bodies are equal to that of Dartmouth. And by the way, Dartmouth's endowment is roughly $2 billion, same as Brown's. Michigan's endowment is $5 billion. Yes, per student, they have slightly more money, but we aren't talking about great differences. And KB, one more thing, when I say Michigan is one of the top 10-15 universities in the nation, I am refering to undergraduate level education. At the graduate level, Michigan is one of the top 5 or 6 in the nation. You have very little knowledge about universities and much to learn. You will one day realize that of all the schools you got into, the one you attended was indeed the best.</p>

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<p>Have you any rebuttal to the points I raised, other than calling me ignorant and stupid?</p>

<p>I many not know as much about universities as you, but at least I don't subscribe to a blind allegiance to this school. Your arrogance blinds your judgement. You have no response on the distribution of stats across the freshman classes. If a small group of gifted students are carrying the whole student body, don't you think that's important to know, or at least investigate? You have no response as to how resources are spread out amongst a huge number of people. Assuming your numbers are correct, that means that for every dollar Michigan has to spend on a student, Dartmouth has two. A full 100% more. Small difference.......... You have no response on the quality of Michigan's student body, looking outside of numerical benchmarks.</p>

<p>I again repeat: I'm not saying that UM is bad. Its better than the VAST MAJORITY of universities in a number of respects. It however does not deserve the type of attention and prestige that it gets. And it certainly doesn't deserve the type of free pass that Alexandre give it on a number of issues.</p>

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<p>kb, why are you so convinced that the # scored on some test is the major determinant of the quality of education? It's mostly a reflection of family income anyway. I'd worry more about the quality of the teachers and facilities--not so much about the mean or median of other students. There are plenty of very smart students at UM. Just try to go there and get over a 3.75 gpa.</p>

<p>I know UM has much better facilities in virtually every area than Dartmouth. The library is over twice as large. It gets many more journals. It has far better engineering labs. On and on.</p>

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<p>First of all KB, I did not say you are ignorant and I certainly did not say you are stupid. I did say you do not have much exposure to and experience with universities. Your opinion of universities is based purely on your expectations, not necessarily on how universities really are.</p>

<p>Secondly, I do not subscribe to blind allegiance to any university, Michigan included. I am often critical of the university and judge all universities fairly.</p>

<p>Again, KB, you are not entirely correct in your assessment. You are confusing endowment with operating budget. A university can only use a tiny fraction of its endowment (usually 5%) on an annual basis. That would be $100 million in the case of Dartmouth and $250 million in the caseof Michigan. That's not even close to hou much those schools spend on their students. Dartmouth's operation budget is under $600 million, Michigan's is over $2 billion (not including the hospital). Per student, Dartmouth does indeed spend more on its students than Michigan (more like 40%, not 100%), but Michigan benefits from economies of scale. </p>

<p>And your assessment of Michigan's student body is yours to cherish. I will stand by my observation and the statistics. </p>

<p>At any rate, I'd say the attention and respect Michigan gets is earned, not merely given away. And it's not just my arrogance and blind allegiance speaking. The entire academic World and the entire corporate recruiting world seems to share those sentiments.</p>

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<p>i've got 1980 SATS 680 Chem 650 IIC...3.65 UW GPA Intel from Indonesia..intended major-BME..do i have a chance at UM-Ann Arbor?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If they were selecting from equally qualified applicants

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't believe anyone has made the claim that they are equally qualified.</p>

<p>I said (and I believe Michigan would say) everyone who is admitted is qualified. There is a large pool of qualified applicants. U-M picks and chooses among them, sometimes pulling out students who are "less" qualified (depending on how you define it) and who definitely have a lower academic profile (GPA, test score, etc). But that's not the same as saying they are UNqualified. </p>

<p>I don't think Michigan publishes stats on its ratings, but believe me there are many, many more people rated "Admit" than ever get in. Michigan may take all the "High Admits" but can't take all the "Admits" unless it were to vastly change its size.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'd hypothesize that the actual "median" stats (GPA, test scores) etc. are lower than the reported averages, because the higher stats of OOS students drag the means up.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If I can clear this up....OOS students do have higher test scores, but not higher GPAs on average. I cannot recall the reason for sure, but I believe it is because the proportion of students applying from private and highly competitive public schools may be higher. Since U-M takes high school & curriculum into account, it is forgiving (to some degree) when it comes to not having a 4.0 at a stellar school. This impacts more nonresidents than residents.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm a little concerned about how those "averages" are calculated. We have a school that is 35% OOS right - those OOS students have stats that are quite superior to those of the regular in-state student. I'd hypothesize that the actual "median" stats (GPA, test scores) etc. are lower than the reported averages, because the higher stats of OOS students drag the means up.

[/quote]
...kb54010</p>

<p>Who's talking averages? Most of the stats posted on the Michigan website are 25%-50% percentile. Here are the facts for the 2005 freshman class:</p>

<p>Middle 50th percentile of the class:
SAT I Total of 1240–1400
Unweighted high school GPA of 3.6–3.9
22% with a 4.0 GPA
44.4% with 3.9 or higher GPA</p>

<p>Michigan's SAT range is comparable to UCB (1220-1450)</p>

<p>Your "theory" about high OOS grades pulling up the average GPA is absurd, considering Michigan GPA average is around 3.75. I could just as easily claim that it is the bottom 25% that are pulling down the average. Do your math!!!
It takes three students with perfect 4.0 to compensate for one 3.0 student.</p>

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<p>I'm just kicking around ideas here....I'm trying to meld the numbers with the subjective feeling that a huge number of UM undergraduates are underqualified...</p>

<p>I walk around this place every day, and I refuse to accept without question the statement that UM undergrads are by and large "Ivy League material".</p>

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<p>If I may add....I'm really proud of the fact that as of this moment, this thread has been viewed over 1,100 times. We should encourage a discourse on what our university is like, and how it could be better.</p>

<p>I hope none of you think I'm evil, but I feel like if we don't ask hard questions, we miss out on an opportunity to make UM a better place for everyone..</p>

<p>Best,
KB</p>

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<p>KB, one way to make Michigan a better place is to tell others how great and underrated it really is...not more and certainly not less. I just hope you don't feel like you "settled" for Michigan. That's the worst possible feeling.</p>

<p>On a side note, Michigan is most certainly not "Ivy material". I would never want Michigan to be like an Ivy. I wholeheartedly think Michigan is just as good as any university in the World (including the Ivies), but in its own unique way which the Ivies cannot touch. That is why I chose Michigan over 4 Ivies and would make the same decision today if I had to. As for the students, it is a fact that cannot be denied that the top 60% of Michigan students resemble, in quality and potential, a typical Ivy League student body. That cannot be denied. The numbers never lie. It is a fact that the 40th%ile of Michigan students graduated in the top 5% of their class with a 3.75 unweighed GPA and a 1300 on their SAT. 60% of Michigan students do as well or better than that. Those are Ivy League type states. At Cornell and Brown, 30% of the students graduate ranked out of the top 20% of their class with unweighed GPAs under 3.7 and SATs under 1300. Columbia and Penn aren't far behind.</p>

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<p>I'm gonna go ahead and say that the reason why GPA and class rank stats at UM are higher is that the applicants at Cornell (which is a junk school btw..but w/e) and Brown by and large went to more competitive high schools than the average UM student, especially in-state. At a competitive high school, you just don't see kids in the top 5% getting below a 1300.</p>

<p>
[quote]
one way to make Michigan a better place is to tell others how great and underrated it really is

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You can't be serious. The best way to make UM better is to play up the good and ignore the bad???? Sounds like an alcoholic trying to quit drinking without acknowledging the problem in the first place.</p>

<p>There's plenty good about Michigan. But is there bad...absolutely. To ignore it is a painful denial of reality. Alexandre, do you find anything about this university that you don't like? This whole think is about candid, honest appraisals of the university; anything less than that is an unfortunate waste of time.</p>

<p>Did I "settle" for Michigan. Umm...yes. Its not a complicated situation; UM gave me a lot of money. So I came here b/c it was basically free; not because of its "world-class" facilities, its "exciting" football climate, its "Ivy League quality" student body etc. I'm satisfied with the LSA scholarship office, but that doesn't affect how I judge UM. Just cause they're paying me to go here doesn't mean I have to toe the party line.</p>

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<p>You assume too much KB. And I never said one should ignore Michigan's relative weaknesses. Michigan has room for improvement. All universities do. But Michigan's aim should be to improve on its former self, not to try and imitate other universities or try to justify its excellence based on what other universities have done. </p>

<p>But given the fact that you feel like you settled for Michigan, there isn't much anybody can do to change your mind. In your eyes, you lowered your standards by joining Michigan. I hope you never settle for anything again. If you are the type that settles, you will never be truly content.</p>

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<p>i'd just like to add that most out of state students at michigan did not consider michigan their first choice college, I was one of them. But, to those students that intend to major in sciences/maths/engineering, and think Michigan is easier than Ivy Leagues such as Cornell, Columbia: be prepared for a spank. I personally know many people that came to Michigan over ivies,stanford for the money/think its easier. These students are not the best at Michigan. I agree that this school has a easy admissions policy, but in terms of the coursework and what they expect out of you, this school is as hard as they come. Which is not a great thing, because I personally think elite private schools offer more attention.
kb, u won't win with alexandre, and i also think when alexandre went to college, Michigan was a different school.</p>

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<p>I'm a freshman this year and I chose Michigan over many more prestigious schools, including Brown, Georgetown, Dartmouth, Duke and Harvard. True, I was offered a large scholarship from UM and no financial aid at any other school. But I have never regretted my decision to come here.</p>

<p>First, I'm sure there are people who make dumb comments or who don't study at any school in the nation, including MIT, Harvard and Yale. Any group of 18 year olds is going to have some kids like that. I think it's somewhat naive to believe that just because the average SAT score is 50 points higher that some magic threshold is reached where everyone has insightful things to say. Kids skip class, sleep through class and just do the bare minimum to get As everywhere.</p>

<p>That sort of leads into my second point. The lack of an "intellectual atmosphere" may be worse at other more elite schools, because of a pervading sense of entitlement. Once a lot of kids get into Harvard (at least from what I've heard about the school), they stop working. They've already made it. Most of the grades given out are As. I'd rather be surrounded by a group of kids who maybe aren't as bright but at least aren't quite so jaded. There's a lot more to education than the SAT scores and padded resumes of your classmates.</p>

<p>Finally, I believe that Michigan is first and foremost a public institution. It has an obligation to the state of Michigan. Not an obligation to US News rankings, not an obligation to the egos of applicants, not an obligation to the status conscious parent. If the school were to decide to be more selective, sure, its ranking would rise. But it would no longer be educating the youth of Michigan.</p>

<p>Yes, there are times when I wish that I could say that I went to Harvard. But that's a pretty poor reason to pick a school.</p>

<p>I guess the reason I get a little defensive is because I love Michigan and I've had a great experience so far. I've met tons of bright and interesting people. I guess I just really hope that this thread doesn't dissuade anyone from applying/coming here just because they feel like their stats are too good. As a bonus to a great undergrad experience, I promise that a Michigan degree is worth tons at any grad school in the country.</p>

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<p>Of COURSE you're defensive. You have to defend the decision you made to come to this school over the other ones. The only differance between you and me is that I gave up on defend my decision. Its indefensible. "I got a huge scholarship" is the only justification we have left. </p>

<p>I've got to go study so I can get the A on my polisci final that I "deserve", but I feel that its necessary for me to repeat for the umpteenth time: there is good to be found at UM. It IS possible to have a good experience; I'VE had good experiences. Is it as good as the people drinking the kool-aid would have you believe...not so much. There are problems...rather glaring ones in some case, and people reading this thread should know that UM is not the land of milk and honey. Is there something wrong with an honest assesment of the school? Why is everyone so afraid of that?</p>

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<p>What exactly is your basis of comparison? Have you attended any other university? I have read of many students being disappointed with Harvard. Does that mean H is not very good?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
i'd just like to add that most out of state students at michigan did not consider michigan their first choice college,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The College Board has a product called "ASQ" or "admitted student questionnaire" that colleges may administer to all students they admitted--those who came and those who didn't. You may have received one (or more!) of these from other colleges you considered. Michigan hasn't done one since 2001 but they will probably do one soon.</p>

<p>If the truth is that "most" nonresidents are here in spite of Michigan not being their first choice, then things have changed considerably since the last time this survey was conducted. </p>

<p>I'm not sure, therefore, that this claim is credible to me.</p>

<p>Now that I think about it, CIRP asks this question every year of freshmen. I don't have that data. Does jeff?</p>

<p>Finally, as to lack of satisfaction or complaining....I think this probably happens at many schools, as barrons suggests. The last time Michigan did a large-scale survey of seniors, they found that seniors had a lot to say about how Michigan could be improved. And yet most of them were pretty satisfied with their experience overall. Most of them would choose to come here again, knowing what they knew four years later.</p>

<p>One person filled the entire page of satisfaction items out giving relatively grumpy assessment of everything from advising to ease of getting classes to housing to computer labs. And the final question, asking about overall satisfaction? He circled that he was satisfied. He wrote in the margin "Go Figure." I loved it so much I kept that survey separate to look at now and then. I got a real kick out of it, but I also think it epitomized how many Michigan students feel--and perhaps how many college students feel on campuses all over.</p>

<p>Obviously not everyone is happy here. However, it's worthwhile to question how widely their worldview is truly shared. Your peers may join you in sympathetic kvetching sessions, but there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting that they're not, in fact, as displeased with the University as is being suggested by some.</p>