Is skipping AP Calc O.K. for non math/science majors?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>I want to major in political science or history, and although i'm enrolled in AP Calc AB (the most difficult math offered at my school, the teacher is insane) I would like to get out of it and take Pre Calc instead. The reason being that I already have 10 AP courses without it, I have tons of EC responsibilities, and I would like to focus on some of my history research instead of doing ~30 problem sets a night with quizzes every week. I'm also enrolled in AP Stat, and I've taken all of the AP sciences, so my math/science background is pretty strong other than this. Will Harvard just put me in the "Denied" pile because of this? </p>

<p>BTW: 760 Math SAT, ~20 AP courses by the time I grad, and valedictorian if that helps..</p>

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<p>I think you'll be fine, esp. with all the other AP sciences and Stat.</p>

3

<p>Thanks for this input.. I'll probably get switched out of it tomorrow morning. Takes too much away from what I really want to do, history.</p>

4

<p>Yeah, I think it's okay as long as you are filling the void with equally awesome activities (which it sounds like you'll be doing).</p>

5

<p>Why don't you take calculus over statistics? It's just so beautiful, you're missing out! =( </p>

<p>All of the AP sciences? Physics C is concurrent with calculus... </p>

<p>Also, Pre Calculus is a pre-req of calculus. How could you do AB w/o a knowledge of precalc? Are you retaking pre-calculus? Impressive - those 20 APs, how'd you manage that?</p>

6

<p>You perfectionists drive me crazy--it's not because of AP calc you'll be accepted OR rejected..stop already. With 20 AP's, possibe Valedictorian, etc-come on, this would reek of false modesty if it weren't the fact that you're asking the question in all (naive) seriousness. Harvard is not just looking for academic geniuses. There are MANY other factors that will impact your admission, and have much greater bearing on your chances.</p>

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<p>HYP like to see Calc on your transcript. </p>

<p>How can you have taken <em>all</em> of the AP science courses without getting to PreCalc?</p>

8

<p>No, lack of Calculus on your transcript will not result in an automatic rejection.</p>

<p>However, if your application reads anything like your post, don't bother sending it in. </p>

<p>1) Dropping Calculus to take Pre Calculus makes no sense. You shouldn't be taking Calculus if you haven't taken Pre Calculus. You should be taking Pre Calculus. Not knowing this would not be a good sign.</p>

<p>If you have taken Pre Calculus, taking it again ??? won't exactly help your application. Maybe you meant BC and AB instead of AB and Pre-Calc? You don't want your application reader guessing what you meant to say - even if he/she can figure it out by looking at your transcript or the balance of your application.</p>

<p>2) As pointed out already, you can not have already taken ALL the science AP's if you have not also already taken Calculus. So, your statement is factually incorrect. Why it is factually incorrect (intentional or not) does not really matter and it further erodes the believability of anything else you have written. </p>

<p>The reader is back to guessing what you meant to say.</p>

<p>3) Taking things a step further - Math/Science go together - taking all of the Science AP's (ignoring Physics C for now) and not taking Calculus would likely raise a flag - difficulty passing the smell test. An explanation beyond "the teacher was too hard" will be needed.</p>

<p>4) Taking 10 AP courses now (w/o Calc) , 20 AP courses by graduation ??? Why not 30 or 40? It would be as believable.</p>

<p>What AP courses have you already taken? What were your scores? What is your current schedule?</p>

<p>Perhaps you meant "Honors" courses instead of "APs"? It is highly unlikely that a school that does not offer BC Calculus even offers 20 APs.</p>

<p>Here is the list of AP's that Harvard specifically references in regard to Advanced Standing.:</p>

<p>"A score of 5 on the following College Board Advanced Placement examinations may earn one full credit toward eligibility:</p>

<p>Art (History)
Biology
Calculus BC1
Chemistry
Economics (micro and macro)
English (literature and composition)2
French (language)3 French (literature)3
German (language)
History (United States)
History (European)
Italian (language and culture)
Physics B4
Spanish (language)3
Spanish (literature)3
A score of 5 on the following College Board Advanced Placement examinations may earn one half credit toward eligibility:
Calculus AB (or Calc AB subscore)1
Computer Science AB
Economics (micro)
Economics (macro)
English (language and composition)2
Latin Literature
Latin: Vergil Music (theory)5
Music (listening and literature)5
Physics C (E&M)4
Physics C (Mechanics)4
Psychology
Statistics
The following College Board Advanced Placement examinations may NOT be used for eligibility:
Art (Studio and Portfolio)
Comparative Government and Politics
Computer Science A
Environmental Science
Human Geography
International English
United States Government and Politics."</p>

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<p>I'll try to answer your questions...</p>

<p>I have not taken Pre-Calc, and its not required at my school to move to AP Calc. They do not offer AP Physics C at my school, but I'm taking B. I have ten AP's right now, and that isn't all that unusual at my school (I actually have 10 with calc, counted APAH twice) because alot of us take courses online/at college, which is what I do. My application is obviously not going to be like my post, I was just trying to state any relevant information to my question, and I didn't realize that you would want a break down of my entire schedule. My current schedule looks like this:</p>

<p>IN SCHOOL:</p>

<p>(Per1) AP Lit
(Per2) AP Calc AB
(Per3) JROTC Hon.
(Per4) AP Phys. B (Per 1.)
(Per5) AP Phys. (Per. 2, they make us take it twice a day on period scheduling)
(Per6) Lunch
(Per7) AP Stat
(Per8) AP Euro</p>

<p>AT HOME (started some in junior year):</p>

<p>AP Micro
AP Macro
AP US Gov't
AP Art History sem 1
AP Art History sem 2 (i accidentally counted this twice, which is why i said 11, but I'm taking both semesters)
AP Comp Science B</p>

<p>AT Comm. College (these are courses I have now, I have also taken Freshman English, US gov't, and college success):</p>

<p>Spanish (will take the AP Span. Exam)
Astronomy w/ Lab</p>

<p>I have taken:</p>

<p>AP Bio 3
AP Chem 3
AP Env. Science 4
AP Psych 5
AP USH 5
AP World 4
AP Human Geo 4
AP Lang 5</p>

<p>Which is 19 and yes, I rounded up by one, but note that I used a tilde (~) to say about, not exactly. When I said that I took all the AP sciences I was oversimplifying because I didn't think it mattered that much.. I have taken all of them, but not all the different difficulties (C, B, etc), because they only offer one difficulty at my school per class. About point 4, my school only offers about ~12 APs (estimating), but I take the rest at other schools. About point 3, I don't know what to tell you, I have a busy course load, the teacher is immensely difficult (no calculators allowed, pop-quizzes, massive HW, and extremely difficult tests), and I really don't care for math.</p>

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<p>I know this doesn't answer your question: but why so many AP's? I'm pretty sure that beyond 10 AP's, Harvard and other schools stop caring and look to other criteria. </p>

<p>And if your only problem is your teacher, why not take Calculus at your community college instead?</p>

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<p>I took all the AP's because I had to in order to be valedictorian on our weighting scale (.08 to GPA for a semester AP). Thanks for the recommendation on the Calc at the community college, I hadn't thought of it to be honest.</p>

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<p>Don't really know what to make of all that. Not an intuitively coherent picture.</p>

<p>So I won't try. </p>

<p>Three points still:</p>

<p>1) Not making sense yet on the math front. Still having to guess what you meant to say. Math is sequential. Typically Algebra, Geometry, Trig, Functions (pre calc), Calculus. While there is some play to be had with geometry, not so with the rest. You can't go from trig to calculus and skip functions. It does not matter what your school requires. </p>

<p>What math class did you take last year?</p>

<p>What is the curriculum of the Calculus course? What course(s) cover(s) functions?</p>

<p>2) You are talking here about applying to Harvard. They expect you to make sense. </p>

<p>3) ..."I'm too busy" and "it's too hard" aren't phrases likely to help your application.</p>

<p>The question about why no Calculus is just begged for by the AP list above. It is going to asked and you will need a better answer.</p>

13

<p>Ahhh</p>

<p>You will also need a better explanation than "I took all the AP's because I had to in order to be valedictorian on our weighting scale (.08 to GPA for a semester AP)" for you curricular choices. That's almost exactly what they won't want to hear.</p>

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<p>Haha, sorry about the AP explanation. There are some classes I really enjoy (physics, English, history), but many of the others I take because its expected of students with high grades and test scores at my school. But, you must realize that what I say on an informal messaging board is not necessarily going to be as eloquent as the explanation I write on my application. I'm just trying to simplify some of the extraneous information. I'll try to break your questions down, but this is going to be weird. Students at my school have some crazy schedules. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>I didn't take a math last (junior) year. The last pure math class I took was algebra II hon. sophomore year. I was supposed to be in precalc this year (students here almost always skip trig), but based on my SAT score the calc teacher requested to the guidance office that I be put in AP. The teacher covers everything that is on the AP AB test thoroughly, and often expands on questions that are part of the homework by making us do extra steps. She used to teach BC calc, which the school got rid of when it switched to period scheduling from block, and she models AB after that course. Also, some people in my school do skip from trig to calc...</p></li>
<li><p>Sorry, weird school. In fact, I have 2 math credits on my transcript for one Algebra II course because I self-studied it...</p></li>
<li><p>Why not? I thought focusing on your interests was important to Harvard. Its obvious that I'm not going to major or focus at all in mathematics, and the "core" only requires that I take something easy in math, like statistics. So why should I waste an enormous amount of time trying to learn new material in a difficult course that doesn't apply to my college future at all?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Soooo, question is, should I suffer through AP Calc AB without trig/precalc, trying to cram new info into my brain, or just go and take Precalc? If I pull a B in AP calc with a lot of work, despite the missing req's, would that be better than getting an A in precalc and following a regular pattern? Or is my transcript so messed up that it would be better to take precalc in the first place so that I don't confuse the adcoms?</p>

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<p>EDIT:: Ok, I think I just had a pretty good idea. I take Precalc with trig at my community college now, and then next semester I take business calc or calc 1 at the community college. I get precalc, trig, and calc credit that way without having to learn a bunch of crap at once.</p>

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<p>OK</p>

<p>better picture now. (I think)</p>

<p>I really can't fathom jumping from honors algebra to calc w/o pre-calc. Pre-calc (I'm assuming "honors algebra" encompassed trig) appears to be the next logical math course for you to take. Doing so should not land your app in the reject pile. There may question why you did not take math as a junior, but that's already done.</p>

<p>I think most important for you is to present a coherent "story" in your application which ties everything together so that it makes sense to the reader. </p>

<p>As for point 3 above, perhaps Northstarmom would be someone better to comment on this, but I will try:</p>

<p>It seems to me that:
Harvard wants people who seek challenge not avoid it. They talk much about the importance of time management. Not doing something because "It's too hard" conveys avoiding challenge while "I'm too busy"" conveys problems with time management. Neither trait does well at Harvard. As for pursuing your interests - its really more about pursuing your passions, and you don't get there by process of elimination after getting rid of everything that was too hard or took too much time. </p>

<p>Again, I don't "know" any of this, but it seems that Harvard wants passionate people where excellence and accomplishment are a byproduct of that passion, not the result of checking off all the boxes on a todo list. </p>

<p>Passions may change, but the approach to life and those passions won't.</p>

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<p>Am I mistaken when I say you must take a gym class to graduate?</p>

<p>In my school, if you want to take the toughest classes, you're stuck to a strict schedule.</p>

<p>Doubling freshman year with trig/geometry, I find it hard to believe my freshman year I took a harder math class than you have yet to experience.</p>

<p>Doubling junior year was physics H and Biology AP.</p>

<p>Then senior year I have all the APs I can take, and gym. Which will end me at 11.</p>

<p>We do not have semesters, so I cannot take more than 7 APs a year, we have 8 periods a day. And you must take a gym to graduate, no?</p>

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<p>No, I took JROTC I-IV, which covers the gym, health, and performing arts credits that I need to graduate. We are also only allowed 7 classes in school a year, but I took extra courses at other high schools, colleges, and over the Internet, which is how I have so many APs. By Florida standards Trig/Geo isn't as hard as Trig/Alg (which I took as a sophomore), but that may be different in your state, although I do admit that I have tried to keep my distance from math classes.</p>

<p>
[quote]

It seems to me that:
Harvard wants people who seek challenge not avoid it. They talk much about the importance of time management. Not doing something because "It's too hard" conveys avoiding challenge while "I'm too busy"" conveys problems with time management. Neither trait does well at Harvard. As for pursuing your interests - its really more about pursuing your passions, and you don't get there by process of elimination after getting rid of everything that was too hard or took too much time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not sure why you think I've shied away from academic challenges. Its hard for me to explain in a single sentence the difficulty and challenges invlovled in balancing tedious computer program debugging with online bio, chem problems, nightly college courses, lang essays and novels to read/text mark, while kindling a passion for history. But, if pulling straight A's with a course load like that, while serving as the president of NHS, Jr. Civitan, the science team and club, a member of student council and the city youth council, the Corps Commander of my JROTC, writing a published research paper, and making published artwork, is not effective time managment then I'm not sure what time management really is.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Again, I don't "know" any of this, but it seems that Harvard wants passionate people where excellence and accomplishment are a byproduct of that passion, not the result of checking off all the boxes on a todo list.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I hope this isn't true because it oversimplifies people, and assumes that someone can't be passionate about a goal. How could anyone take 20 AP classes without some passion? Why would they stay up until 3 in the morning doing school work, and miss out on much of their high school life, if they didn't have a strong emotional drive? After all, isn't that the definition of passion? Dismissing accomplishments like becoming valedictorian, which require enormous drive, as checks on a 'to-do' list is kind of petty, and completely disregards the humanity of the people involved. It is painful for me to imagine college admissions falling so low.</p>

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<p>1) My comments were about presentation, not content. Specifically, in the first blurb, I was addressing why "It's too hard" or "It was too hard" and "I'm too busy" are two phrases one probably ought avoid in one's application. I was not commenting on you and did not mean to appear that I was.<br>
Moreover, I am no authority nor expert on Harvard. I am an observer of an admittedly small relative sample of some who got into Harvard and some who did not and of how Harvard presents itself to its applicants and the parents of its students. In a broader sense, I am a graduate of Dartmouth and have been observing certain ivy league admissions for more than 30 years. As such, these are only opinions of an observer - add as many grains of salt as you wish and feel free to disregard entirely.
2) The context here is applying to Harvard
3) This is not about whether or not you are academically qualified. The vast majority of the 27,000 applicants are so qualified. You qualify. But that is just the starting point.
4) This is about how to stand out amongst those 25,000 qualified applicants and get in.
5) Now to your last post (mile wide and foot deep comes to mind- in context cited)
a) It's about what you do and have done, not what positions you occupy. So most of your EC'c will likely elicit a "that's nice" and no more. The published research paper and artwork are the two that potentially stand out. If your passion is history, obviously you will want focus on that, flesh it out, and make it a recurrent theme in your application. If your artistic talent is such that you would be a candidate for schools like Pratt or RISD, then sending a portfolio in would be beneficial. (Much like a conservatory caliber musician should send a demo in.)
b)Harvard doesn't want to hear how difficult high school was for you or how you had to stay up until 3 AM to get your school work done. They will not appreciate Calculus AB being "too hard" no matter who the teacher was. They absolutely don't want to hear that you missed out on much of your high school life doing schoolwork. Whatever you may have heard to the contrary, Harvard's academics will be more demanding than your high school - and they will be concerned about someone who was taxed to the limit in high school (however well they achieved) being able to keep up. They would much rather hear how your EC's kept you up until 3AM, (perpetual lead in school plays, all star athlete or musician with significant travel involved, etc.), and you still "pulled straight A's" in the most challenging curriculum your school offered while not missing out on your high school life.
c) While some schools may take positive notice of the drive and determination (and sacrifice) involved in your accomplishment in becoming valedictorian, (you set a goal and did whatever was necessary to achieve it), at Harvard, that likely will not be the case. I do not believe that passionately wanting to "become valedictorian" of "get into Harvard" is what Harvard is talking about when they speak of "passion".
d) Moreover, the whole concept that some seem to have of Harvard being a reward for a job well done in high school misses the boat. That concept often goes hand in hand with those whose "passion" in high school was to get into Harvard. Harvard is not interested in those for whom acceptance in Harvard represents a culmination of efforts and a time now to rest on one's laurels rather than a beginning of new and greater efforts and a time to engage in all that Harvard has to offer.
d) While you are qualified academically for Harvard - and have every reason to be proud of that fact - you are not abnormally qualified. Many (perhaps even most) applicants will be more so qualified. Many of those ultimately accepted may be less so. Most of those accepted will likely have more depth than you've mentioned here. Harvard Adcoms often talk about how they look for "roommate qualities" when reviewing an application. Having the necessary academic qualifications is a given. To believe that you will get in because of your relative "academic superiority" would be a mistake. Coming across in your application as if such superiority was self evident would be fatal.
6) I do not mean to be harsh and I am not finding myself as capable of properly expressing things as I would want. I am not saying that you will not get in to Harvard nor am I suggesting that you not apply, I just believe you would benefit from some objective assistance from someone more knowledgeable than I in putting your application together. FWIW - I find there is an attitude pervasive in all of your written expression here that will not be helpful to your application. That, I believe is much more of a potential obstacle to any acceptance than not taking calculus would be.</p>

20

<p>There's a thing called uhh heaviest course load. Harvard sort of expects it.</p>