So I know that rankings are subjective to some degree, and that they include a lot of factors that are irrelevant to what you actually get out of the college, but I still have to wonder if you take two schools like Notre Dame and UChicago, is there really much of a difference in the quality of instruction?
No, no difference in quality of the instruction, but the feel of these schools is very different. I would think a student who would thrive at one, wouldn’t love the other.
USNews tends to focus on extremely material things; things that can be measured. Like money. Money per student services. Money per faculty salaries. And, not with a lot of nuance . It has consistently lagged behind other magazine polls in attempting to construct ways measure outcomes and it wasn’t until the Obama administration started publishing data on the median incomes of Stafford loan borrowers six years after graduation that they took baby steps in that direction. So, something as subjective as quality of instruction is not even close to its wheelhouse.
As for UChicago and Notre Dame, there may not be a significant difference in quality-of-instruction between 2 specific, randomly selected courses. There does seem to be a difference in the two schools’ contributions to scholarship in the past ~100 years. If you’re going to make an effort to seek out the best either school can offer, the advantage probably goes to UChicago. In many fields. Not necessarily in every field, for every year or decade. But nobody goes to UofC for the football.
If I’m right, though, the metrics USNWR uses probably do not capture the difference very well. UofC has a long-established, fairly peculiar approach to undergraduate instruction, down to the layout of classroom seating. USNWR won’t measure that. Focusing on close readings of primary source materials, for example, isn’t necessarily coincident with high admission selectivity. Reed and St. John’s have similar practices (I think) but are less selective and have lower levels of financial resources.
The difference between these fine institutions would likely be tied to the total experience. That has a lot to do with both the school AND the student. What is the student looking for? All the fit questions (big, small, urban, rural, University, LAC, Greek, Non-Greek, big sports, etc.) Much of that doesn’t show up in ranking systems as it’s so subjective.
It did seem to me that USNWR college rankings and the criteria used to create them were intended to make them match general notions of college prestige, at least within the top 50 or so of each category. For example, raw graduation rate (which is mostly a proxy of selectivity and lack of affordability problems) is more heavily weighted than graduation rate performance (which gets closer to a college’s actual treatment effect on the students after accounting for student characteristics), even though the latter may be more relevant to college “quality”.
@ucbalumnus How is graduation rate different than graduation rate performance?
Graduation rate performance is graduation rate relative to the expected graduation rate based on the characteristics of the students.
I like that concept. Is graduation rate performance actually calculated somewhere?
USNWR apparently calculates its own version and uses it for a small input into its rankings, but does not publish anything about it.
There is also an expected graduation rate calculator at https://www.heri.ucla.edu/GradRateCalculator.php (at the bottom is a link to a more complete one and a research paper on the subject) that can be used to get expected graduation rates to compare with actual graduation rates. This may not necessarily be the same as what USNWR uses.
The quality of instruction at Chicago, Rice, Notre Dame, Michigan and Georgetown should be of equal outstanding quality. The big difference is reflected in the campus culture of each school.
The UofC is one of this country’s finest institutions, as is ND.
But Lou Holtz once said:
For those of us that would have to google who Lou Holtz is or who think it’s dumb for sports to have such a prominent role in college decision making, UChicago might be a better fit.
But if all you’re considering is academic quality (and again if that is your primary consideration it does bode well for your fit at UChicago), the differences in education quality between any of the top 20 or 30 ranked colleges will be small and it’s silly to pick based on an arbitrary number score.
@milee30 First, the quote is about ND’s atmosphere, academics, sports, culture, campus, school spirit, etc. and just doesn’t pertain to sports.
Second, both my kid and I chose colleges based at least partially upon sports, are you calling people like us “dumb”?
I’m flat out saying that sports have an outsized level of importance in American college and that this misplaced focus is dumb. The rest of the world laughs at how our colleges admit kids based on who runs really fast rather than who has academic skills. We have kids who are supposed to be learning prioritizing activities that are known to cause actual brain damage, which we all watch and cheer while they slowly pulverize their brains for our enjoyment. It’s ridiculous and the only reason people don’t comment more about this insanity is that sports are so much part of our culture that nobody steps back to see if it makes sense.
Picking a college for a sports team is about as legit as the student that picks because the campus is such a pretty shade of brick color or who won’t go on a college tour because the tour guides shoes are lame.
Excuse me while I go don my flame retardant suit now.
You’re entitled to your opinion about sports. Certainly, I LOVE sports and I LOVE football. I love MMA too! You might have to google that one too. Yes, everyone who plays football (or baseball, soccer, etc. for that matter) gets brain damage, including the former football player who I listen to every morning in my car on the radio to work. Actually, he doesn’t and most don’t.
To bring the discussion back on topic, there’s likely little difference between the education you will receive at the UofC vs ND. But there’s a huge difference in atmosphere, culture, vibe, etc. You either get ND or you don’t.
I think my kid’s college choice was both legit and smart!
@milee30 We get and respect your opinion as you have stated it twice on this post. Please respect that others have different ideas.
This is exactly why as @momofsenior1 stated in the first post it is likely that if one school appealed to an applicant that the second school might not. Both are outstanding academic schools so it IMO should come down to fit (not ranking).
MODERATOR’S NOTE: Please move on from discussing sports in college. Thanks!
Rankings factor in alumni and student survey, graduate/faculty research, application numbers & yield (popularity contest) and such so among peer colleges you’ll not see much difference in academic quality. I would say it matters if you are comparing college # 10 with college # 106 but quality of education wise, you won’t see any difference between college# 1 and college# 20.
At top level you should aim for a better fit for yourself and look for differences in community culture, campus size, distance from home, cost, intern opportunities around campus, student:faculty ratio, undergraduate focus, town, name recognition, per student endowment amount, residential system etc.
If you took Notre Dame and compared it to the University of KY, there still wouldn’t be much of a difference. All of these programs are accredited as bachelors degree programs, no more/no less. You’ll be surprised at what criteria are used to come up with these rankings and how poorly it measures anything significant. In fact, the US News rankings don’t even consider quality of education in their rankings at all. Let’s not forget that these schools inflate their numbers too.