Is there any hope for DS

<p>DS2 is taking AP USH this year as a soph. If this is your son's first AP class, it'a a daunting one. The readings can be arduous and LONG. His teacher recommeds that kids get the AMSCO USH study guide and has them start working in it fairly early in the second semester. The teacher is a long-time AP grader and knows what he's doing. DS2 really enjoys the class, and he has found it pretty easy. (He is likely to be a history/polisci major, so this is right up his alley. I don't expect him to have nearly as much love for Calc AB next year. :)) He also has the experience of taking AP Gov't last year, which was good preparation.</p>

<p>P3T is absolutely right about staying ahead of the readings. Study guides can be good tools for helping your S wade through what's important and what's not. There is so much material to cover. I wouldn't wait until April to start reading the unit summaries in review books. </p>

<p>Your son is on the right track here. One B is not the end of the world -- trust me. I'd focus on getting him to spend time on the History readings and getting out and involved with things besides the computer games.</p>

<p>P.S. Both my sons point out that many computer games can be useful in learning one's history -- they like the WWII, Civ IV, Call of Duty series, etc. How much of that is actual truth vs. rationalization I'll leave as an exercise for the reader! :D</p>

<p>soozievt, my kid actually had slightly higher PSAT scores (all of 10 points) in 10th grade than in 11th and both his SAT scores were slightly lower than his equivalent PSAT scores. But yes, I agree, by in large 10th grade scores are likely to be lower than ones received later.</p>

<p>I do agree that AP History as a 10th grader places extra demands on a young student that are less true for the AP science courses.</p>

<p>Mother of son here. I can relate to stellar son whose grades fall off. A lot of good advice above. Do realize that your son will compare himself to his sister without anyone else attempting to. Also realize that boys do not always get the best grades they are capable of, no matter what their parents try to do (eg trying to make them aware that grades matter in college admissions). Also be aware that a B here and there will not doom him. My son is gifted and ran into problems with the AP US History essays because he would try to address too many points and not be able to despite knowing the material, etc. (yes, I did talk to the teacher to find out why his interem grade was lower than expected and the teacher had excellent points that could have been helpful to son). Unfortunately he was too stubborn to take advice on how to write the essays, but that made no difference in college apps/acceptances.</p>

<p>Be prepared for less than the top schools and scholarships. Perfect SAT scores, excellent extracurriculars and near top grades may yield a NM finalist, but only around a third will get any money- do not count on it. Same thing for getting into the most elite colleges, a lot of superb students won't get into HYP et al because there are more such students than places in those schools.</p>

<p>Above all, follow the advice of those who said to show your son your LOVE. Value him for who he is, not who he should or could be.</p>

<p>Parenting a son can be a challenge, especially when they get their high intelligence and strong will from both parents... it is a learning experience for both parents and child. Son is currently in his second year of college, just started his semester and enthusiastic about his courses, including some tough ones. The path may not always be the one you would choose, but they do make it to the destination.</p>

<p>Don't worry about it. The truth is that IN THE AGGREGATE boys mature later than girls do. It may not be politically correct to say so, but colleges know it. Late-blooming boys are the norm, not the exception. As long as his grades follow an upward trend, he'll be fine. If he can throw some great standardized test scores into the mix, so much the better. And if he is willing to attend a LAC, even better.</p>

<p>Bet that the son ends up earning three times as much as his PhD sister. Obviously the sister enjoys books, labs and studying; best to let her brother, who is doing well, find his own passion. Too much adult pressure and meddling will almost certainly harm his self esteem and drive him away to other outlets--which are likely to be far worse than getting a "B".</p>

<p>Dad II, I just want to thank you for putting yourself out here and inviting us all to comment on your situation. If I see a thread of yours, I always read it. You're intense, but very honest. I love how many incredibly thoughtful responses you get. </p>

<p>Not much new to add here, but I speak as someone whose son spends way more time on video games than he should, gets extraordinary test scores and has what some here would consider unbearably low grades (more than one B, but never a C). He's also a very happy, creative, self-assured and interesting kid. As a parent, it's hard to let a kid take a path that you see as less than perfect, but don't forget that there could be an upside that you're not factoring in to the success equation. He is smart and will continue to do well if you allow him to make decisions for himself, and he might just end up having less stress, more friends and a better outlook than a student who feels the relentless pressure of parents who appear to think he's not good enough. I've seen the effects of this kind of stress, and it's not pretty. </p>

<p>Bottom line, I think it's fine to inform your kid about the possible consequences of not getting terrific test scores or GPA; if he has his heart set on Harvard, let him decide how important it is to tailor his choices to that goal. In the meantime, count your blessings, and be glad you don't have to cut off his hand :)</p>

<p>I know plenty of parents who would love to have a kid whose biggest sin is getting a B in an AP class. Seriously.... this is a problem? Re-read the title of this thread - "Is there hope for DS?" I would say DS has plenty of hope - IF his dad will get off his back. </p>

<p>We get one chance in life to be teenagers. Yes, our kids should focus on their studies. But they should also play sports, have friends, have some down-time (including computer games if that's what they like).... in short, they are more than their transcripts. They need to have a LIFE.</p>

<p>My advice to you is to BACK OFF. Regardless of whether you think you are comparing your kids... you ARE. Re-read your early posts in this thread. Simply by referencing his older sister, you are comparing them. </p>

<p>I have a similar set up, with the genders reversed. DS was an outstanding and dedicated student. He is now at a top-40 LAC and happy as a clam. DD is just as bright... but she also plays 2 sports, is a class officer, and has a very active social life with friends that she treasures. She does her homework and studies enough to keep B's. I don't know what college she will go to (she's only in 10th grade). But I know she will look back on her high school years a lot more fondly than her brother will. I also know that she is acutely aware that her brother's grades were higher than hers, and will accuse me of comparing them even when I don't think I am doing it. She is NOT her brother, she is entitled to her own life, and I have no doubt that she will be successful and happy, regardless of which college she attends.</p>

<p>If you push your kid too hard they will rebel. Or become depressed. Encouragement and support are wonderful, but there's a clear line between support and pushing. The drive to succeed must come from within. </p>

<p>I echo Rainmama - COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS.</p>

<p>DadII: Your post has been bugging me all day because usually it is only naive children frightened of parental disappointment who have to ask whether there is still hope for themselves after getting a B. On a more positive note, your post demonstrates to all of us how important it is for us to back off, so that our children don't end up being pathetic and whiny about their grades, and about their lives, and later in life, about the lives of their children . . .</p>

<p>"PS. I remember reading some where that Asian boys are the most competitive group for college admission. if my DD has a difficult time getting any where other than State U. I am concerned about DS's chance."</p>

<p>Since he's in 10th grade, it's still a little early to be worrying about this. My understanding is that if he applies to the schools that many Asian males apply to (MIT, Ivies) you might be right. But there are many wonderful LACs that welcome Asian males (heck, welcome any male). When the time comes, I'm sure people on CC will be able to make suggestions.</p>

<p>OK, so I think we are being too hard on Dad II. Speaking from experience, if you come from a family that prizes academic achievement, and your first kid gets you addicted to high performance, it's hard when the second kid backs off that standard. Even if it does mean they just get one B among their A's. There is nothing wrong with setting expectations of high performance as a family. Nothing.</p>

<p>There IS something wrong with making the kid feel unloved if they don't meet the standard, or comparing them to siblings. But you know what? If high performance on academics is one of your values, and your kid has the capability, personally I think it is disingenuous and dishonest to act like you don't care. Better to own up to your own parental expectations and desires, make them clear, and STILL also make it really clear that you love your child no matter what.</p>

<p>Laud your child and support them for who they are. For their quirks and skills and weakness. But do it honestly. And if you want your kid to get straight A's, and they can, then make no bones about your wishes. On the other hand, the kid will do what they are going to do. You have to calibrate your expression of your expectations very carefully. You have to push just enough and then know when to back down. You have to listen to your kid. But you don't have to stop telling them what matters to you.</p>

<p>Simultaneously, you have to give yourself therapy on why they will be fine if they go to a lesser school. On why Bs are not the end of the world. On how school is just school and the most important thing is supporting your kid to become a happy and productive adult however that happens. But you don't have to tell yourself that you shouldn't care at all.</p>

<p>If I could count the therapy hours (and $$$) my HS graduating classmates and I have spent in AA and counseling over the spoken and non-spoken message that "your A's aren't good enough," I could pay for S's college and W and I to travel around the world repeatedly.</p>

<p>I can't imagine that Dad II's S is going to "fail" if he doesn't match his sister or gets Bs. Who do you think all us neurotic, over-achieving nut cases WORK FOR? Yep, the B people, who have a life, people skills and own the company.</p>

<p>First of all, I apologize for that titile. I did not mean to be "not hope" but I can't edit it.</p>

<p>Cross my haert, I love both my kids very much and do show that every single day. However, I also set very high standards for them to meet because I think they are capable. </p>

<p>My DS is extremely smart when he applys himself. Let me give you an example. In those dial up intenet day, it was easy for us to restrict his on-line time. He was probaly 10 years old then and could only get to the net when we log on. We had MSN at that time. He figure out a way to dial up w/o using our password. I called MSN and the technical support people told me that is impossible. I had my son show me the steps and then tell that to the MSN people. They were surprised and changed some setting as the result.</p>

<p>The reason I was thinking about this "no hope" was that DS seems suddenly lost all interests. Other than playing games hours on end, he does not do much of anything else.</p>

<p>Wow, Dad II, sounds like he could have a future in the computer industry! If that is his passion, there could be worse ones. I know you do love your kids and I'll admit I wanted my son to have all A's because I wanted him to have maximum choices for college. He had 2 B pluses freshman year, but rather than giving him a hard time about it, I praised him for challenging himself (by testing into a harder math class and skipping a year of French). Your son is also challenging himself by taking a difficult college level course as a sophomore. Any good admissions committee will take that into account.</p>

<p>
[quote]

My brother just called and told me that his DD got into Stanford with a full scholarship to get her Ph. D. in Chem. Eng. They are waiting for other offers from MIT, Yale, etc.

[/quote]

If this was your friend other than your brother, I would say its typical Asian parent syndrome (not to stererotype asian parent, but I've seen plenty of them) like my kid put it. Not to say its good or bad, but behave like that dose sometime puts pressure on other kid's parents, especially if the party you talk to also has 'asian parent syndrome'. </p>

<p>Given the difficulty even get into the college (any college) in Asia countries (ie. Japan, Korear, Taiwan, China, Sigapore, etc.) most educated parents come from these countries are very competitive (at least academically speaking) themselves. Thus usually they hold higher expectation for their kids, and bring in the traditional education cultual from their home county, nothing short of 100 (OK, maybe a little exagerated here) would be satisfied to the parents. From my own experence I would say a little 'layback attitude' might do wonders to your kid's develop. I'll share some of my experience here.</p>

<p>I value the 'academic decipline' from the Asian schools, I also equally value the 'freedom' and 'diversity' education from US schools. The best way, imo, would be in the middle. When our kid was young, like most asia parent, we send him to different out school activities (tennis, swimming, skating, music instrument, drawing, supplement math/reading classes, etc.) just to explore where the kid's real interest and talent reside. Some of these classes out of his own requests, some out of our 'dictation'. Unfortunately or fortunately, where his 'talent' was recoganized he had no interest in, where I don't see any 'talent' in hime he had the interest......start around middle school age, we let the kid making decisions what activities he wanted to participant, we just provide the rides. I remember it was then, he quite most of his out of school classes and getting more involved in school's out of class activities, things like track team, student body, some academic competetions, etc......Start from HS we let him took 'complete' control of his school course selection and activities in school and out of school (partly because both of us were very busy at our professional jobs). We only offer our 'opinion'/advise when asked. But most of time and often the critical ones (like his course selection at sephmore and junnior year) we were wrong (and happily be wrong). After all who knows better than the kid? He is the one attend the school very day, talk to the teachers and students there every day, knows whats going on in school.......So the bottom line, imo, is as long as you send them to a good school (public or private), you did your job, let them be! If they are talented and self driver they will be successful anywhere in their life. In America there are plenty ways of measuring the word 'successful'. One dose not need to be a PhD. or CEO. or a Banker to be considered as successful. This is the most 'Diversity'.</p>

<p>Back to OP's original question. 'B' is ok. From all I heard, at college admission. They value courses difficulty more than a simple gpa #, especially for those top schools. They value more on if you chalange youself enough under you school's resource that yor are able to access. That's why you don't see any hard cut gpa # requirement posted at those top school's website. And why in Common App (teacher or consoler's recomandation form) they ask if there is # of AP class limitaion per year in your school. Mines got couple of Bs (never bother to work hard enough for As) on AP courese, but both cases he did very well at the AP exams....so far it was OK, got EAed to one of top ranked colleges, where number and only number counted. So after all the couple of Bs diddn't hurt that much as we original thought would be.</p>

<p>"The reason I was thinking about this "no hope" was that DS seems suddenly lost all interests. Other than playing games hours on end, he does not do much of anything else."</p>

<p>OK Dad II, now after reading your last post I see this in a different light. It's possible your son is retreating to video games because he's depressed or using them to escape the pressure to get all A's. If he's not acting himself, then there is a cause for concern - but simply getting on his case to work harder certainly won't solve the problem, and will probably make it worse. He needs support and love - not pressure. And maybe encouragement to find some more social activities - clubs at school, etc.</p>

<p>There's a whole thread on CC about a boy who has become "addicted" to Worlds of Warcraft - it will probably scare you silly but you could read it to see if your son is displaying any of the warning signs.</p>

<p>I grew up in a Chinese family very similar to OP's family. It left a lot of scars. My youngest brother was the casualty. He had the highest IQ out of 4 sibings, but had other interests outside of academic. He didn't go to an ivy and ended up joining the military. He went to the Gulf war, but could never get my father's respect. My father would let it be known what a big disappointment my brother was to him, how he "couldn't lift up his head up in front of his family and friends." I think because of it, my brother has very low self esteem. At the age of 40, he is still trying to find himself.</p>

<p>As with other over achieving siblings (top tier schools, IB and law careers), we don't have very warm relationships with our Chinese parents either. We felt my father was always keeping a score card on each of us, he loved us more or less based on how well we were doing (may not be true, but that's how we felt).</p>

<p>Fast forward to 20+ years later, my father told me that he would do it differently if he could. He told me not to worry so much about my kids grades or what schools they go to, what's important is their health and happiness.</p>

<p>Dad II - try to show your love for your kids in a different way. Get to know them as individuals, see them for who they really are, not what you would like them to be.</p>

<p>From the perspective of a video game loving teenage boy:</p>

<p>While most video games(and especially console video games) are generally just played in a television like trance, you seem to be suggesting that your son is both smart and an avid pc user.</p>

<p>In my experience, it's very difficult to both love logic/computing, and video games, before trying to do something with it yourself. It may not be a fully fledged programming job, but he may start creating modifications to games he already has, or designing maps, or creating scenarios. While this does not mean that this is the case, it isn't impossible that he's working on those things. </p>

<p>I've developed a few small modifications in my time, and while it's nothing compared to what you see from nearly professional studios, it did teach me the basics of 3d modeling and programming. If your son is just playing Counter Strike, or especially the World of Warcraft(or any MMORPG) competitively all day, trying to win, he might not be in that state of mind. </p>

<p>But if he is, there is likely a very strong creative desire to make something visual. In my case, I can't draw, but I had ideas. Computers make it possible without the needed hand-eye relationship. You said your son was creative, so this may be an outlet for that.</p>

<p>While I wouldn't just say "go ahead and let him play," before dismissing all video games as merely toys, ask him if he does enjoy working on these things, maybe just editing a few text files, or making maps, but perhaps even new games. If he does, that makes it seem like he may well have a future in computing, as there is a lot of room for people who like playing the logic games needed for game design in the industry. Perhaps he'd like a class in programming or web design or graphics design or some other aspect of computing?</p>

<p>Of course, he may just well like killing things too, but I assure you that there is a lot more complexity to how people play video games than merely shooting things. He may be a story teller, an engineer, a writer, a designer, a strategist, and so forth, not merely as a character, but as an actually online being. (That sounds strange, but I mean the mindsets are strikingly similar.)</p>

<p>And again, he might just like the "killing things" aspect.</p>

<p>Video games are often just used to waste time, but sometimes they are a demonstration of art.</p>

<p>My only reason for saying this is that you might want to ask him why he likes the games he plays, what else he does with them, and why he likes to do those things. It's like a kid who loves to scribble during class, yes most of the time the kid might be wasting time, but perhaps he's actually a repressed artist.</p>

<p>Well, I hope what I said makes sense, I just think that your son might be showing more interest than you realize, just in a virtual world that doesn't get much attention.</p>

<p>(If you want to see what high school and college kids do with engines provided by companies, I highly suggest looking into the modifications made for Half Life 1 and 2, which are both very open games with a lot of access to the inner workings.)</p>

<p>And if you're concerned about colleges, I can say that the one tech school I applied to seemed interested in the modifications I'd made to other games. And most of them liked that I won a local vocabulary contest by using words and concepts that are often explored in RPG's. There is a shocking amount of art in some games, but most of the time you just hear about the ultra-violent ones.</p>

<p>(Xenosaga is basically a space opera with extreme religious concepts. I guarantee an entire segment of people was introduced to gnostic philosophy, Nietzche, and a variety of other ideas by it. Same with the much more violent Bioshock and objectivism. I don't think most games have come anywhere near being artistic masterpieces, but the interaction that is so often blamed for violence is also extremely useful for exploring an entire new medium. It's like the first movies. No, most of them are terrible, but as cinema improved, many of the movies became more art than entertainment. Honestly, the same is true of literature, as is evidenced by any supermarket's book stand. Mostly terrible, but some glittering works of art do exist.)</p>

<p>So that was a bit long as far as rants go. I admit that it's more likely that your son is just goofing off with games, but before the entire outlet is dismissed as one giant toy, perhaps consider kids with bands(or just intersted in music.) Many people love music, maybe even burning CD's. Some even play guitar. While for many it's just an easy thing to do to be entertained, there are some for whom it's more than that. I know a fellow who, a few years back, started his own recording studio. He's at NYU's recording school now. </p>

<p>Sorry, I'm trying to conclude this but I'm failing miserably.</p>

<p>Ah, the sons! Overall, they do seem to be a different challenge than the daughters. And as parents, we have to be careful not to have unrealistic expectations of any of them. </p>

<p>My S was at the top of his class at a private middle school. He was a stellar student who was proud to do well. However, he never felt as if he fit in socially. He made it clear that he didn't want to continue on to a private h.s., and we put him into a good public school. He has done quite well with demanding courses, but he hasn't had the drive for top grades that he had in middle school. He has gotten a couple B's. His B last spring in Honors English was due to "forgetting" to study for his biweekly vocab tests. He learned to keep track of things better after that. His B this semester in AP USH came from leaving the studying until the night before. He learned to begin to prepare earlier (by end of semester, his grades were considerably higher than in beginning). His B in Intro to Business was in part due to a terrible teacher who could not control her class & his own reaction to that terrible teacher. He learned that he has to figure out how to deal with bad teachers (bosses, etc.!) and that not taking a class seriously because he thinks the teacher is an idiot hurts HIS grade (and has no effect on the teacher). These have been learning experiences, and he is hardly worse off for them (gpa still 3.9).</p>

<p>S spends lots of time on the computer, also. He is very "into" music & does a lot on the computer with listening, recording, composing, maintaining his band's website, etc. His music is a hobby, but it's one that he truly enjoys. Because he is a big computer buff, he is taking web design & will take other classes in the future (networking, CISCO, etc.). If this is what he enjoys, then it's what he will spend his time doing. He is not building a resume in the process, but he is being himself.</p>

<p>D was very different from S. When she got a B in her junior year (AP Chem), you'd have thought the world had ended ... she had so much trouble dealing with it. S's ability to handle the occasional B doesn't seem so bad when I think about how hard it was to convince his sister that a B is not failure. </p>

<p>While I sometimes think it would be nice if S had the same internal standards that he had a few years ago, I realize that he seems quite happy with himself. When he was in middle school, he had some issues with anxiety & OCD & we even took him for a few counseling sessions when he had trouble sleeping. Now that he is more comfortable socially & is less demanding on himself academically, he no longer has any anxiety/OCD issues. I wouldn't trade this fact for a 4.0!</p>

<p>In the end, our boys are far from failures. They may or may not be ivy league contenders ... but I guess if they really wanted ivy league, they'd do what it took to get what they wanted. Your son sounds much like mine, and they will be more than fine!</p>

<p>oldfort, that was a very touching anecdote and a very important lesson. Thanks for posting it.</p>

<p>I just wanted to remind you of something you already know. You had written "My DS is extremely smart when he applies himself." </p>

<p>Your son IS smart. Whether he studies, gets a B, or whatever, is not relevant to his intelligence. </p>

<p>Grades do not make a person smart and vice versa. Some of the most brilliant, clever, creative, and successful people I know never strived for a 4.0 GPA. Like millions of others, they've had fantastic careers, interesting lives, and a great incomes despite not going to a 'top X' school. A top school might help, but the reality is in the US such success does not at all depend on getting into a top X school. Sometimes I think such B folks are smarter than those that wasted all their youthful years with nose in book, instead of enjoying themselves and exploring the world and doing interesting things that didn't have to be part of a university application.</p>