Is There Really An Education Crisis?

Parents Forum
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<p>Well, we have something in common. I also find certain posts on this thread disgusting - those from teachers and their apologists who attempt to put the onus of our horrid public education system everywhere except where it belongs - on the people who are responsible for teaching the children.</p>

<p>I know that many teachers try very hard to do a good job. But many are simply not intellectually equipped to rise above the level of mediocrity. It is unfortunate that we as a society have made the decision to populate our public teaching ranks primarily with people from the bottom of the college graduate barrel.</p>

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<p>I’m not implying it, I’m saying it openly and explicitly. There are exceptions. But they are the exceptions.</p>

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<p>And a highly selective faculty, over half with PhDs, and, as far as I know, none with education majors (there may be a few exceptions). Much more typical of a college faculty than a public high school faculty.</p>

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<p>…I still maintain that you are significantly over estimating the number of poor teachers in the profession. You keep coming back to the argument that because education majors are in the bottom 1/4 of college students in SAT scores, they can’t teach. My D had higher SAT scores than probably 99% of her teachers, but that didn’t mean that she couldn’t (and didn’t) learn from them.</p>

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<p>Annasdad–sounds like your overall impression of public school teachers may be limited to the area where you live. I went to a public HS and none of my teachers were education majors. As far as I was aware, all my teachers had a degree in the subject they taught. I am quite certain because we often talked on majoring in that particular subject in college and they would tell us about their experience. I did have a couple of “bad” teachers but they were the exception not the norm.</p>

<p>The only thing my teachers constantly told us was not to grow up and become a teacher! Maybe a lot of them had run into arrogant parents who thought they knew more than they actually did.</p>

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<p>I just read the last page of this thread, so if I missed a subtlety of the discussion, forgive me. </p>

<p>Let me be an apologist for my teacher H, annasdad:</p>

<p>He was a valedictorian in HS; his SAT was top 1%. He graduated with a high GPA from a top public University, honors in bio and philosophy. He went to medical school (MCAT 40ish), graduated near the top of his class, inducted into med school honor society.</p>

<p>Now he’s a biology teacher–not by alternate route but by taking teacher ed classes for certification. I think he’s fairly qualified. </p>

<p>However, teaching reforms scare the bejeezus out of him–he is a fanatically good teacher, you’ll just have to take my word on that. In Finland, that would be appreciated. In this country, he’s a couple years of lower test averages by students away from being laid off --judged on a science test which the students know does not count. His students are lovely people who will learn in his class as well as they will anyhwere, but many moved here from other school systems with endemic social challenges, many don’t speak English, many are classified with different standards allowed for grades, but who still take the same useless standardized test on which employment is based–etc etc. You have no idea what is in my H’s ability to affect, and what isn’t. Kids who have havoc at home, kids whose parents are working several jobs to keep them fed and housed, kids who have been thrown out of their homes because they were gay… biology is not high on their list of priorities, and least of all is a test which means nothing to them or their futures.</p>

<p>Well, nevermind, your mind is made up. I shouldn’t even bother.</p>

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<p>Well, you know the saying, annasdad - we don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are. Your children had unfortunate experiences in public schools, and that’s colored your opinion of public school teachers. Mine received an excellent education in our school system, which is why I think so highly of public school teachers. And between them, my kids had a whole lot of public school teachers, because I never felt they’d be better served through homeschooling or private schools. </p>

<p>There’s so much hostility in what you post. American teachers don’t deserve respect? Have we now moved on from inflexible phonics advocates to American teachers in general? I could not disagree with you more. I visited my daughter’s inner-city first grade classroom twice and was floored by the energy she expended all day long. And the hours after school of designing individualized (yup) reading lesson plans, math and science and social studies lessons as well, grading papers, taking continuing education classes herself, going to meetings with school and district staff, communicating with parents on matters large and small. I couldn’t have done her job for a single day. And a professional who does that every day is undeserving of respect? How … baffling.</p>

<p>As it happens, neither of my kids in the education field were ed majors as undergrads. But I’m not one of those snobs who abhors the education major. Too many of my kids’ excellent teachers were ed majors themselves.</p>

<p>annasdad, I suggest that people who presume that public school teachers are drawn from the bottom of the intellectual barrel are going to look foolish sooner or later. Also - extending respect generally elicits respect in return.</p>

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<p>And if Garland’s H taught in the excellent public suburban high school my kids attend/attended, here’s what would happen:</p>

<p>He would have very high expectations for the clearly intelligent kids in his science classes. He would set high standards, give appropriately difficult tests, create interesting labs. He do everything that anyone could possibly desire in a highly qualified, highly effective teacher.</p>

<p>He, his department head and his principal would get a constant barrage of emails and phone calls from irate parents, complaining about:</p>

<p>Mr. Garland spoke harshly to my son because he didn’t have his work with him and wanted to be allowed to go to his locker to retreive it. i expect an apology.</p>

<p>Mr. Garland wouldn’t extend the assignment’s due date. My son missed school because he had a wonderful opportunity to accompany us to China (or wherever). I don’t care that Mr. Garland told him he would have to hand it in prior to leaving. He didn’t have time, and we think international travel is of the utmost importance.</p>

<p>Mr. Garland tested the students on 8 chapters, which is unreasonable during the football playoffs. My son needs his sleep. A scholarship may be riding on how well he plays.</p>

<p>Mr. Garland LOST my son’s assignment. I absolutely know that is the truth, because that’s what my son told me and he would NEVER lie about something like that.</p>

<p>Mr. Garland frowned at my daughter, which upset her because she is suffering from… fill in the blanks. We demand that she be moved to a different classroom.</p>

<p>Mr. Garland has failed to post the test results of the midterm exams in a timely manner. (test was given at 8AM.) We are leaving for our annual ski vacation to (fill in the blank, quite possibly to the Alps) tomorrow morning and I expect to see that grade posted before we leave.</p>

<p>The best teachers run a tight ship, have high expectations, offer exciting lessons, and if they are lucky enough to be teaching in a public school in a wealthy area, they will be beaten into the ground by the parents who want all of that, but also demand that their own children be happy all the time, and have wonderful success, all the time. </p>

<p>I am not exaggerating any of the above examples. They are all statements made by various parents at my own kids’ high school.</p>

<p>We parents complain and complain and complain about the crummy teachers, but then we beat the great ones into the ground.</p>

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<p>Spot on, eastcoastcrazy. And we wonder where some kids get their sense of entitlement? </p>

<p>Some posters come across as cranky and critical of almost everything. Can only hope that’s not the message their kids learn.</p>

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<p>Eastcoast–we are a mixed district–you have hit the nail on the head for the kids from the richer end of town.</p>

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<p>…and it’s not just the affluent parents. It never ceases to amaze me that parents believe everything their kids tell them. I would estimate that their are 50 X as many poor parents as there are poor teachers.</p>

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<p>You mean the lightbulb doesn’t go off inside their head when they lie?</p>

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<p>I was in a parent conference last year when the parent said “I don’t believe half of what he says”…I responded “that’s your problem, you shouldn’t believe any of what he says”…I knew the parent & said it in a joking manner, but I think they got my point.</p>

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<p>Eastcoeasy—hahaha, I love the excuses and I heard them all the time from many of my friends parents. The “rich” kids didn’t think they had to follow the rules because their parents would just call and harass the teacher and principal. One of THE BEST teachers I ever had taught a very difficult AP class. The students were expected to work hard and got good results on the exam. The class had a reputation of being very difficult but fair. </p>

<p>During my year, a few kids decided the class was too demanding and that they couldn’t keep up with the homework. They tried to drop the class which wasn’t allowed (we all had to request to be in the class and had to sign a paper that said we understood the workload and were willing put in the time). The parents of those students went to the superintendent and said the teacher was really bad. When that didn’t work they all got dr’s notes ( written by one of the kids parents) saying they were too stressed. They were allowed to drop. </p>

<p>That teacher refused to ever teach the course again. The new teacher is one who gives a lot less homework and a lot more A’s. The parents were happy but no one passed the AP exam.</p>

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<p>…I am also very saddened by the fact that educators get very little support from professionals outside of education, in the fields of mental health and general medicine. We get prescriptions to give accommodations and excuses for absences all the time from professionals who are strictly basing their opinions on what the student and parent have told them.</p>

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<p>While it may change sooner or later, today it is alas not a presumption. Schools that crank out undergraduate degrees in education are, with a few exceptions, among the lowest selective. At the graduate level, education are at the bottom of the GRE scores. </p>

<p>However, even if the SAT scores might be higher as a result of students from selective universities pursuing new avenues in a depressed economic, it remains that the access to the profession, the selectivity of the pools of applicants, the training, and performance expectations will not be comparable to a country such as Finland. </p>

<p>It will take generations upon generations of better qualified and trained teachers, AND a massive overhaul of the educational system to bring us to a level that reflects our expenses per capita. It would also require a massive change of focus from administration towards the teaching elements, and most importantly… drastic elimination of most of concessions extorted by the trade unions over the past six decades that rewarded the less competent and least dedicated. This, however, does not mean lower salaries for the teachers! </p>

<p>There is always hope, but I am afraid that few CC parents will witness the start of positive changes. I’d be lucky to see them in my … lifetime.</p>

<p>PS Fwiw, I never heard or experienced anything close to the stories reported by Eastcoastcrazy. After all, it might be true that discipline and dedication are different in public schools than in private ones. Sounds eerily similar to the stories of that good old Phantom Professor from SMU!</p>

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<p>I think some professionals look at the students needs from different lenses. My mother was a school psychologist in a NY public school system. She’d occasionally ask my opinion on a challenging case. I would say " but he needs…" and she would say " but he qualifies for…". She was, for lack of a better word, more of a gatekeeper, looking to see what services he qualified for. I looked at it as a diagnostician and from a treatment standpoint. And the intervention approaches might differ a bit too. So I don’t see it as not being supportive- I see it as looking at different sides of the elephant.</p>

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<p>xig,
what is your opinion of Teach for America?</p>

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<p>EastCoast - LMAO reading your list. How true!</p>

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<p>Correct: it’s not a presumption.</p>

<p>My basic source is Peter Schrag, “Final Test: The Battle for Adequacy in America’s Schools.” It’s been some years since I read the book, and I don’t recall the details of the studies he cites; but he does back his assertion (that teachers come from the bottom 25%) with data. Maybe I’ll dig my copy out of storage and cite it here, although frankly, I have my doubts as to whether many people on this thread are interested in facts that contradict their dearly held opinions.</p>

<p>Supporting evidence: “Academically Adrift” reports that education majors, and business majors, had the poorest performance on the Collegiate Learning Assessment, which assesses critical reasoning skills.</p>

<p>More supporting evidence: Look at the admittance statistics for universities that break them down by college. The colleges of education are almost invariably at or near the bottom.</p>

<p>So yes, we’re staffing our schools with the bottom 25%.</p>

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xiggi, I was speaking here of the inevitability of bumping up against a superb, intellectually gifted public school teacher today. And you know - some even went to selective schools, if you can imagine such a thing. (My kids’ APUSH teacher was a Cornell alum.) </p>

<p>Garland proved the point in #85 before I even posted.</p>