Is UMich - Ann Arbor at par with the Ivy?

Colleges & Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>“The strength of the overall academic departments is the only area in which Michigan and Duke are comparable.”</p>

<p>Really? First of all, Michigan is generally ranked above Duke in most academic departments. With the exception of Biomedical Engineering, Biology and English, I cannot think of a singledepartment at Duke that is ranked higher than Michigan. On the other hand, Michigan is ranked ahead of Duke in mostother departments, including Chemistry, Economics, History, Pyshics, Political Science and all of Engineering except Biomedical Engineering. </p>

<p>“Duke blows Michigan out of the water in every other USNWR category.”</p>

<p>ring<em>of</em>fire, there is another category in the USNWR where Michigan and Duke are comparable; Student Selectivity. According to the USNWR Student Selectivuty category, Duke is the 11th most selective university in the nation and Michigan is the 18th most selective university in the nation. I would say that is comparable wouldn’t you? The alumni donations and financial resources ratings are laughable categories as they operate entirely in a vacuume. </p>

<p>“Do you believe that Harvard is a peer to Michigan?”</p>

<p>First of all, who said anything about Harvard? Did anybody here say that Michigan and Harvard are peers as undergraduate institutions overall? I don’t think so. </p>

<p>“If you want to claim that all the top 100 schools are “peers”, then more power to you. Duke is stronger at the undergraduate level than Michigan though.”</p>

<p>Again, who said that the top 100 universities are equal? The top 5 universities are in a league of their own. They are handily better than the rest. Yes, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale are the best and we all admit as much. After those 5, you have 15 or so private universities, 15 or so LACs and 5 or so public universities that are of roughly equal quality. That’s roughly 20 universities and 15 LACs. Hardly 100 universities. </p>

<p>Finally, I would hope you would personally think Duke is better than Michigan. It is natural for one to think highly of their alma matter. I personally think Michigan is better than Duke. Like you, I was admitted into both schools and like you, I chose the one I thought was better. Our personal opinions aside, general opinion would generally rate Michigan and Duke as equals at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. But the truth is, when you peel away all personal opinions and are left with a pure product, Duke and Michigan are roughly identical institutions both academically and reputationally.</p>

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I have the proof that Michigan is inferior on a per capita basis to Duke, Cornell, Brown and Penn with regards to finance placement.</p>

<p>[2007</a> list of BB Summer Associate class by colleges | WallStreetOasis.com](<a href=“http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/2007-list-of-bb-summer-associate-class-by-colleges]2007”>http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/2007-list-of-bb-summer-associate-class-by-colleges)</p>

<p>[»</a> Private Equity Firms & Universities: What’s the Relationship? | BankersBall. Where Investment Bankers Come to Party. Investment Banking Compensation & Salary](<a href=“http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:k7G5__M0kBoJ:www.bankersball.com/2008/02/26/private-equity-firms-universities-whats-the-relationship/+bankers+ball+private+equity+firms+and+universities&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a]»”>http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:k7G5__M0kBoJ:www.bankersball.com/2008/02/26/private-equity-firms-universities-whats-the-relationship/+bankers+ball+private+equity+firms+and+universities&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a)</p>

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Well, USNWR data relies on information on the previous year and is always a little behind. This year, Michigan had a 41% acceptance rate overall and Duke had a 17% acceptance rate. Does that sound like two comparable schools to you? I do think there is a significant difference between 11th and 18th in student selectivity anymore.</p>

<p>If Michigan has so many superior academic programs, then why do they have the same 4.4 PA as Duke? Why are the alumni donations and financial resources ratings laughable? They matter to any student who is looking for a strong and intimate undergraduate experience. The undergraduate resources and alumni loyalty at schools like Duke, Dartmouth and Princeton are unparalleled and Michigan certainly can’t compare.</p>

<p>It’s because of Duke’s incredible financial resources that they can afford to have student programs like DukeEngage, where a student can travel anywhere around the world and do meaningful community service with full financial support from the school.</p>

<p>[DukeEngage</a> | Home](<a href=“http://dukeengage.duke.edu/]DukeEngage”>http://dukeengage.duke.edu/)</p>

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<p>False, completely false. HYPSM may be in a league of their own but the second tier is much narrower than you claim it to be. Duke trumps Michigan in virtually every ranking and statistical measure that measures undergraduate education, institutional reputation and prestige that are out there.</p>

<p>Duke is a lot closer to Harvard than it is to Michigan.</p>

<p><a href=“WSJ in Higher Education | Trusted News & Real-World Insights”>http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
[Duke</a> outearns Cornell to take salary championship](<a href=“http://content.usatoday.com/community/comments.aspx?id=34462244.story&p=1]Duke”>Duke outearns Cornell to take salary championship)</p>

<p>Duke dominates Michigan with regards to salary and postgraduate placement. Duke grads make a whopping $18,000 more than Michigan grads just 5 years out college. The graduate school placement numbers aren’t even comparable.</p>

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<p>why do per capita numbers matter? i don’t think anybody denies that, by virtue of being a public school, michigan has a lot of dead weight at the bottom of its student classes. you have to look at two points:
-the number of “smart” students at these schools who are interested in finance are roughly the same
and
-the absolute numbers look pretty favorable for michigan</p>

<p>also, if we are going to resort to small sample sizes, duke got destroyed by this bulge bracket bank this summer:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/investment-banking/656754-target-schools-ib-3.html#post1062481527[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/investment-banking/656754-target-schools-ib-3.html#post1062481527&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>finally, that pe list is a bit skewed because it doesn’t include any good chicago funds. a lot of michigan alums have strong ties to the region. add madison dearborn to the list and the results would be a lot different</p>

<p>edit: i also just realized that they cited alexandre for that pe article. that is awesome.</p>

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<p>ring<em>of</em>fire, all of your links do not prove anything. Let us break it down link by link:</p>

<p>[2007</a> list of BB Summer Associate class by colleges | WallStreetOasis.com](<a href=“http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/2007-list-of-bb-summer-associate-class-by-colleges]2007”>http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/2007-list-of-bb-summer-associate-class-by-colleges)</p>

<p>You have to be kidding me. This “data” was posted by a single intern at a single Investment Bank. How does that prove anything. Even then, Michigan does well with 4. </p>

<p>[»</a> Private Equity Firms & Universities: What’s the Relationship? | BankersBall. Where Investment Bankers Come to Party. Investment Banking Compensation & Salary](<a href=“http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:k7G5__M0kBoJ:www.bankersball.com/2008/02/26/private-equity-firms-universities-whats-the-relationship/+bankers+ball+private+equity+firms+and+universities&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a]»”>http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:k7G5__M0kBoJ:www.bankersball.com/2008/02/26/private-equity-firms-universities-whats-the-relationship/+bankers+ball+private+equity+firms+and+universities&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a)</p>

<p>Private Equity is like a lottery. Harvard and Penn do relatively well, but the rest of the universities are recruited roughly the same way. And did you check the source of the link?! hehe! ;)</p>

<p>"False, completely false. HYPSM may be in a league of their own but the second tier is much narrower than you claim it to be. Duke trumps Michigan in virtually every ranking and statistical measure that measures undergraduate education, institutional reputation and prestige that are out there.</p>

<p>Duke is a lot closer to Harvard than it is to Michigan."</p>

<p>You know ring<em>of</em>fire, Duke is not a member of the Ivy League and last time I checked, this thread was about Michigan being a peer institution to Ivy League schools. Throughout this thread, I have compared Michigan to only three or four Ivies (Brown, Cornell and Penn and maybe Columbia) and I have not mentioned Duke. I am not sure why you brought Duke into the picture. </p>

<p>At any rate, to claim that Brown, Cornell and Penn are “a lot” closer to Harvard than Michigan is actually incorrect. They are equally distant to Harvard. In other words, they aren’t better than Michigan in any way. And the same goes for Duke. You can claim all you want that Duke is better than Michigan, but it isn’t. Only a minority of people with experience and influence would agree you and there is an equally small group of people on the other end of the spectrum who would argue that Michigan is much closer to Harvard than Brown, Cornell and Penn. the vast majority of experienced and influencial people would agree that all those universities are roughly equal. That’s what every poll I have ever seen would suggest and that is what my years of experience in the corporate world (particularly in the fields of Consutling, Investment Banking and Human Resources) have demonstrated to me. </p>

<p>“Duke dominates Michigan with regards to salary and postgraduate placement. Duke grads make a whopping $18,000 more than Michigan grads just 5 years out college. The graduate school placement numbers aren’t even comparable.”</p>

<p>The WSJ and salary surveys you refer to are interesting to be sure, but they do not provide a full picture. They do not take into account career paths, geographic distribution of alumni and student academic and professional interests. You cannot judge a university simply by looking at such statistics. If you look at the admissions rates and salaries of students/alumni in similar domains, Michigan would be comparable to the likes of Brown, Cornell and Penn. Again, I am not sure what Duke has to do with this debate since Duke is not a member of the Ivy League.</p>

<p>Ring<em>of</em>fire, you remind me of myself when I was 21 or 22 years old. I was not quite as elitist as you, but I genuinely believed Michigan was better than Brown and Dartmouth back then. What can I say, I have changed my mind over the years and grown to respect universities of equal (but different) quality. Just because I love Lange & Sohne does not mean I do not respect Breguet. Just because I love L’Ambroisie does not mean I do not respect L’Arpege. And, I have learn, just because I love Michigan does not mean I do not respect Brown and other smaller universities.</p>

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<p>“Duke trumps Michigan in virtually every ranking and statistical measure that measures undergraduate education, institutional reputation and prestige that are out there.” </p>

<p>Not true at all! ring<em>of</em>fire, one of the most important rankings IMO that you conveniently neglect to discuss is departmental strength. To be honest, I think the PA of Duke is too high and yet it is rated equal to Michigan. Other than a handful of departments at the undergraduate level mentioned earlier, what disciplines are they rated stronger than Michigan?</p>

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<p>ring<em>of</em>fire is so desperate that he’s pulling out all sorts of arbitrary data and links that are irrelevant to this discussion. Listing other schools that are not pertinent to this thread (e.g., Harvard, Duke) are also another example of desperation and steering off-topic. </p>

<p>Can’t we all agree that overall Michigan is a peer to the lower Ivies (PCCBD) and non-Ivies (e.g., Northwestern, Duke, Chicago, etc.)? Sooner or later, this thread will border on the side of ridiculousness.</p>

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<p>I think it’s already too late for that.</p>

<p>Somebody should close this thread. Anyways, to contribute something to it, as cliche as it is, the school you go to is a lot less important than the person you are. A very qualified student who goes to Michigan instead of Cornell, for example, will likely have similar success regardless of where they choose to attend. There have been NUMEROUS studies done to this effect to show that the school has negligible effect on salary, etc. Clearly, there is a CORRELATION between the school and salary, just not as much causation as you’d think.</p>

<p>The QUALITY of education at Michigan vs. Ivies is similar and you can be just as successful at Michigan. There just happens to be slightly more very academically gifted students on a percentage of the whole student body at Ivy Leagues when compared to Michigan and nobody is disputing that. This is just a function of size and the purpose of the university (i.e. Michigan is supposed to have a lot of in-state students to serve the citizens of Michigan). On a sheer number basis, however, Michigan might even have some of them beat. But I’d agree that Ivies are harder to get into than Michigan for the vast majority of individuals.</p>

<p>Alexandre even admits that Michigan is not as selective as Ivy counterparts, and nobody is arguing that ring<em>of</em>fire:

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<p>Personally, for biomedical engineering my preference was Duke, then Michigan, then Columbia. All great schools; I just thought Duke was the best fit for me and its BME program is particularly strong. (I grew up as a big Michigan fan though). Most people thought I was crazy for saying I’d attend Michigan over Columbia, but just felt better to me.</p>

<p>In my mind, [/End of discussion]</p>

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<p>Sooner or later, this thread will border on the side of ridiculousness. </p>

<p>I think this was contributed partially by me? (that’s the reason why I have been reading a book rather than posting–also because it is a good book and I can’t get away from it, but now I am done :C, and because it has drained much of my time)</p>

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Per capita numbers matter because Michigan has an ENTIRE BUSINESS SCHOOL CLASS, some liberal arts student and engineers that are competing for jobs in Finance while Duke doesn’t have a business school and have less students interested in the field. There is less competition at Duke for a finance job since the student body size is smaller and we don’t have a business school.</p>

<p>That bulge bracket you listed was for a Chicago office. Duke alums do not tend to settle in the Midwest. I’m surprised we had any interns there at all.</p>

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Michigan does NOT do well with 4. For a university of Michigan’s size with a giant business and engineering schools, losing out on a TOTAL NUMBER basis by almost 2 times to Duke and by almost 4 times to Dartmouth is not something you should be proud of, considering you think Michigan and Dartmouth are “peers”.</p>

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Are you kidding me? Brown, Cornell and Penn are better in Michigan in ALMOST EVERY way.</p>

<p>They have…</p>

<p>1) higher selectivity
2) stronger student body
3) more prestige nationally
4) stronger alumni networks
5) more financial resources per capita
6) great service/study abroad opportunities
7) smaller class sizes(except maybe Cornell)
8) better advising
9) more cohesive career centers</p>

<p>Besides departmental rankings, which are derived from graduate school excellence, how is Michigan comparable to the Ivies at all?</p>

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Basically, you are denial that Michigan grads on average get paid less. The geographic domain argument doesn’t work with Duke anyhow Alexandre. While a large portion of Michigan grads settle in the Midwest, a large portion of Duke grads settle in the South and an equal proportion of grads at both schools settle in the NE and the West.</p>

<p>Furthermore, Michigan and Duke are almost equally pre-professional(Michigan has a school of engineering, nursing and business so it might be more so than Duke). So, don’t give me this BS that Michigan grads don’t care about “pay” and pursue lower-paying jobs because we both know that’s not true.</p>

<p>Just admit it, Duke grads are more successful down the line than Michigan grads because they went to a better school. All I want is this simple concession.</p>

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No, because this is false information. You are purposefully misleading Michigan applicants into thinking they are applying to a pseudo-Ivy League school when they are not.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>This is not a Michigan vs Harvard thread. Nobody here claims that Michigan is equal to Harvard.</p></li>
<li><p>This is not a Michigan vs MIT, Princeton, Stanford or Yale thread. Again, nobody here claims that Michigan is equal to any of those universities.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Alexandre,</p>

<p>The OP’s question was:
I was just wondering if it is at the same league as ** Harvard & Stanford ** …(don’t include the “acceptance rating”) </p>

<p>And </p>

<ol>
<li>This is not a Michigan’s-total-and-overall-student-body-is-identical-to-Ivy-League-student-bodies thread either. Again, nobody claimed that Michigan’s student body was exactly equal to the student body at say Brown, Cornell or Penn.</li>
</ol>

<p>When I was debating in this, we were initially this topic about Michigan overall is at par with Ivy.</p>

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<p>Now you aren’t even making a legitimate argument. Nobody has argued that Duke grads on average do worse than Michigan grads. But I don’t think you’ll find any data to support your argument that the reason Duke grads on average do better is because they went to a “better” (read more prestigious regionally and smaller) school. Please cite something that supports this. In fact, I’ll raise you to prove that the opposite isn’t true. Seeing as Duke starts with a smaller more elite on the whole student body (the most important factor to you), why don’t the grads pull further away from Michigan grads, if they attend a better school? Why does virtually every study show that students who are accepted to both ivy league-selective universities and slightly less selective universities, they make the same amount no matter which school they ultimately decide to attend? If the study were narrowed to students who chose to attend Cal, Michigan, or UVA, one might even find they made more.</p>

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<p>All you’re arguing is that those schools are smaller and private (1,2,5,7). 3 and 4 aren’t even true. And 6,8, and 9 you have no clue about so you made up. </p>

<p>Why don’t you admit that your argument isn’t based in logic; it’s based on your bias that everything US news says is right and that north eastern private schools HAVE to be better than public schools or else you wouldn’t be justified in paying so much for them.</p>

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<p>It’s impossible to prove causation in this particular circumstance. I’d agree that higher pay is certainly CORRELATED with being a Duke grad over a Michigan grad. But is that because of the quality of the individual or the quality of the institution? I’d argue that it’s mostly the quality of the individual; that is, the student body is more selective at Duke and thus has students more likely to succeed from a professional standpoint. BUT, somebody who is qualified to get into both might be just as likely to succeed going to Michigan - there is no way to really know. </p>

<p>Honestly, for med school applicants, for example, I almost find it better to go to a so-called “worse” school and be at the top of the class there. I know a lot of people at Duke who struggled to get a high GPA and are struggling to get into med school, while people with less intelligence and less work ethic went to State U, did really well from a GPA standpoint, and are getting into med school, even with a worse MCAT score. Business certainly works differently though as the business-field does seem to screen more based on schools.</p>

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<p>cdz512,
The OP’s exact statement was:</p>

<p>“Curious… our senator got the Masters at UMich.
I was just wondering if it is at the same league as Harvard & Stanford…(don’t include the “acceptance rating”)”</p>

<p>The OP was asking whether a “Master” degree at Michigan is in the same league as Harvard & Stanford.</p>

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<p>This gets really entertaining when you find out that UM people who loves Michigan don’t even know their own senators. </p>

<p>If you didn’t know Debbie Stabenow got a degree at ** Michigan State University ** and Carl Levin got a undergrad degree at ** Swarthmore College ** and a Law degree from ** Harvard Law School **.</p>

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<p>** “Sooner or later, this thread will border on the side of ridiculousness” **</p>

<p>I think it has already pass the border and onto the side of ridiculousness.</p>

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Did the OP say he/she is from Michigan? or even from this country? … fyi, the OP is from the Philippines.</p>

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<p>Did the OP say he/she is from Michigan? or even from this country? … fyi, the OP is from the Philippines. </p>

<p>What difference does it make? The OP stated that the senator has a masters from UM (which is wrong) and then asks the question. I’m pretty sure he/she is supporting UM. So for the OP to say that and you (GoBlue81) to agree (since you did not point out anything) it kinda shows that you didn’t know who the senator really is. Also I was referring to the people who supported the statement that UM is at par with Ivies because none of you guys countered the OP’s statement or point out he/she was wrong, so yes UM ** people <a href=“not%20just%20the%20OP”>/b</a> don’t know their senators.</p>

<p>Take it this way, Alexandre isn’t even in this country, does that mean he isn’t from UM? No. So how do you know that the OP isn’t from (born and raised in) this country, even though he/she was talked about the Philippines. Maybe the Philippines is where he/she lives right now and thus why he was talking about his country (it could be current or it could be where he is from, how do you know?)</p>

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<p>If that’s what the OP originally asked, then the answer is Yes. A master’s degree from the University of Michigan is highly respected. Most of the school’s graduate departments rank in the top 15. If you’re a Michigan resident, U-M is definitely the better financial deal-breaker. Why pay $50,000 a year for a master’s degree when you can receive the same education for less than $35,000 as an in-state resident? The OP may think it’s weird, but I would rather have less debt when I leave graduate school. ESPECIALLY if the OP’s required field is a) not high-paying as a whole, and b) work experience is more important.</p>

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<p>re: ring<em>of</em>fire

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<p>that definitely was not a chicago office, unless you happen to know one with 50+ summer interns (most dont even have that many total bankers)</p>

<p>this thread has gotten ridiculous. bluedog said it very well so i think ill just requote him then be done posting here</p>

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