<p>This is the fault of parents who sacrifice their kids success with responsibility with their academic success by doing just about everything for them. We have a lot of smart kids who do nothing to meaningfully contribute to anything but their own self interest academically.</p>
<p>Certainly, this is not all. But not all brilliantly academically motivated students can't do the simple stuff as put forth above.</p>
<p>Students who have A-levels (UK and some Commonwealth countries), the French Baccalaureat or the German Arbitur are eligible forAdvanced (sophomore) Standing in most American colleges. As to why they want to come to the US: 1. a change of scenery; 2. a chance to take a variety of courses rather than sticking to courses in a single major selected at the time of application; 3. a chance to be accepted without regard to available slots in particular fields (eg. medicine) that reduce intake.</p>
<p>As to why some students take college courses in high school, some need them just to challenge themselves and enjoy the learning experience. Taking multivariable calculus and linear algebra as a high school junior is not uncommon. It does not make the juniors college-ready in other fields, which is why they do not skip high school and go straight to college. It does not have to be the norm. But there is no reason to hold back those who are capable of doing college-level work just because the majority of students are doing high school level work. Just as clothes are not one-size fits all, so students have different needs.
"What use does that knowledge do me?" is not a good attitude for anyone interested in college or indeed education in general.</p>
<p>"I think our public school system should focus more on writing rather than all of those AP courses"</p>
<p>Oldfort hit the proverbial nail on the head!! My D is a senior, and the only significant research writing she has done in all three and a half years of HS was her National History Day project freshman year, and that was an EC! She will go to (hopefully) a ranked LAC not having much experience in writing research papers longer than a page or two at all, she has just had just tons of these DBQs (document based questions) that our district loves to assign to prepare them for state tests if anything else....at least the APs here are taught like college courses (and graded accordingly), so she will be prepared in that regard, but the lack of writing assignments really worries me!</p>
<p>I took both of my required composition classes as a senior through dual-credit. First semester we probably wrote 6-7 papers that ranged in length from 1-5 pages. Second semester we wrote a research paper that had to be 15-20 pages. </p>
<p>I know at my high school they could use to add some writing and could do away with all of the literature that is stuffed down our throats..</p>
<p>I'd certainly second the writing comments...</p>
<p>In a lot of foreign schools and universities writing is a key component to the courses... even in the sciences.</p>
<p>There is no need to sacrifice writing to "content" or vice-versa. The main problem is the American fondness for multiple choice type tests (unknown to me in my French lycee). But this is a totally different issue from whether students should be taking advanced courses in high school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To a lot of international students, multivariable calculus, differential equations, organic chemistry, etc, are in fact high school material. My experience is that when they come here they either take these classes over as easy As or start out in higher level courses. I believe they come to the United States because we have many highly respected institutions with many resources.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think international students come here so they can stand out better among USA high school students regarding Math and Science, vs the stiff competition among students from their own countries. At the same time, they also can improve their English, which they think is an essential skill in a global world. For example, to run a multi-global corporation, you must speak English to communicate with other people.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I wouldn't say it's so much the knowledge as the ability to think critically and to keep your mind in shape.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Despite these many AP classes, I think some of these students fail to think critically.</p>
<p>I'm another one who thinks the AP/IB thing may be getting out of hand. For a few advanced kids, it's great. But there are a lot of kids who are pushed to load up on AP's, to the detriment of taking any fun, enriching course (Art, Music, etc). </p>
<p>Bigger problem in our public hs - the huge gap between honors/AP, and CP (College Prep) classes. I cannot count the number of times I've heard of kids who were struggling to hold a B- or C in an honors class, who drop back to CP and are cruising with an A with little effort. My D has had the same experience. It's like the expectations for honors are unrealistically high, and for CP are ridiculously low. Isn't there a happy medium somewhere?</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is no longer eye-brow raising on CC to see Multivariable Calculus/Differential Equations Junior year
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Correct. </p>
<p>David</a> Bressoud's Launchings from the CUPM Curriculum Guide </p>
<p>(See chart Calculus Before Grade 12). </p>
<p>Contrary to what is said in one reply above, in many of the newly industrialized countries of east Asia, high school attendance is pervasive, the high school curriculum is generalized and taken by all students, and yet it is much more advanced than the high school curriculum in the United States. See the TIMSS study, </p>
<p>TIMSS</a> 2007 International Mathematics Report </p>
<p>which was just released, for information about how far ahead of the BEST states in the United States students are in math by eighth grade in several countries. That makes a truly world-class high school curriculum possible in such countries, and some educators in the United States (and quite a few parents who are aware of the situation overseas) are trying to help their students here keep up to such a standard. </p>
<p>For the record, my son took his multivariable calculus class in tenth grade. The first half of eleventh grade, just concluded, featured a "transitions" course for advanced high school students focusing on topology. The next math class he is registered for is a numerical analysis course taught through our state university's computer science department. Our state's dual-enrollment program, </p>
<p>Postsecondary</a> Enrollment Options </p>
<p>the first of its kind in the country, was founded more than twenty years ago by a governor who was compassionate toward learners who were bored by the too-slow pace of many high school curricula.</p>
<p>An interesting point of view on this issue: </p>
<p>The</a> Calculus Trap </p>
<p>"If ever you are by far the best, or the most interested, student in a classroom, then you should find another classroom."</p>
<p>OP has raised an important issue. </p>
<p>many AP courses are challenging and useful (much depends on the teacher). But they are rarely "college" courses, and giving kids tons of college credit for them truly short changes students. It is fine to use AP credit to allow a student to skip an introductory class. But the notion that someone could start college as a "sophomore" because she or he has taken a bunch of AP classes is, well, ridiculous.</p>
<p>Unfortunately there are a fare share of courses taken at college that are not really college courses either.</p>
<p>It used to be that students started college when they were ready for it, whether that was at 15 or at 22. With the homogenation of education (around age, mostly), 18 is considered the "right" age to start college.</p>
<p>Yay for more advanced courses for kids who want and need them!</p>
<p>I think much depends on the high school. Top teachers can be hobbled rather than enabled by AP courses in some subjects. And that's another problem--in some subjects AP's are really good, and in others pretty simple minded. Calling something "advanced" does not make it advanced.</p>
<p>I wholeheartedly agree with an earlier poster--a student who can read analytically, write clearly and with a personal voice, and manage time will do very well in college. High school courses that teach these skills are truly advanced.</p>
<p>Kids graduate from HS so late in the US, that I am not surprized with this trend. 12 grades + kindergarden is 3 more grades than in some other countries, most of which have much more challenging math and science programs than in US best schools.</p>
<p>The Hutchins Plan at UChicago in the 1930s called for the first two years of college to be taught in high school; It was, I believe, called the Junior College. I seem to recall reading that a curriculum was designed and disseminated to participating high schools. Hutchins, at that time, believed it was a waste of time to have college faculty teach the first two years of general college education. Students would complete a two year program at Chicago for their BA, which was seen as preparation for the more important graduate work.</p>
<p>Two problems with schools in the US:</p>
<p>1) Everything is to a test. If it is not on a standarized test of some sort (AP, IB, SAT, ACT, PSAT, etc) then it is not important to be taught. That is the logic.</p>
<p>2) If parents don't care, they aren't going to make a student work hard to learn material. And there are a lot of parents out there now who don't really care. Those kids are going to drag others behind. I think this can be linked to the "takes a community to raise a kid" train of thought. It allows the parents to not be parents. AP and honors classes are great and all, but school districts cannot afford to hire a teacher to teach a class of 5-10 students. There isn't the money available.</p>
<p>I admit I haven't read the entire thread, but replying to OP: aside from burn-out of people pushing themselves in ways that genuinely make them miserable, I am at a loss as to why it's ever wrong to learn more sooner. Of course I want people to learn more things at more advanced levels at younger ages if that's what they're capable of. I don't see in value in taking it slow just for the sake of taking it slow when it comes to learning. The entirety of your argument just seems to be "It didn't use to be like this". So what?</p>
<p>*Two problems with schools in the US:</p>
<p>1) Everything is to a test. If it is not on a standarized test of some sort (AP, IB, SAT, ACT, PSAT, etc) then it is not important to be taught. That is the logic.
*
Pretty broad statement.</p>
<p>Depends on the school.
Older daughters school doesn't offer AP. Ok, well they are private and class sizes are about 15, so they can get away with hiring teachers that write curriculum & students that are held to high standards.
Younger daughters school, an inner city public, does have AP, however in subjects that they didn't think was rigorous enough, they write own curriculum as well.
For instance, biology isn't AP, neither is Marine Bio, both which my daughter took.</p>
<p>2) If parents don't care, they aren't going to make a student work hard to learn material. And there are a lot of parents out there now who don't really care. Those kids are going to drag others behind. I think this can be linked to the "takes a community to raise a kid" train of thought. It allows the parents to not be parents. AP and honors classes are great and all, but school districts cannot afford to hire a teacher to teach a class of 5-10 students. There isn't the money available.</p>
<p>I think by the time they get to high school, the parents caring, isn't going to make the difference- albeit it is important.
At D's school, if you are willing to do the work, you can take AP class, this enabled my D to take AP, at the same time she was taking regular or remedial subjects. She wasn't the only one. Additionally, not caring wasn't why she was behind in one or two subjects.</p>
<p>I would agree that the classroom is going to be full. Our classes are 30-35 students, if too many students want to take a class, they aren't necessarily able to hire another teacher.</p>
<p>It is equally true that many successful, and often brilliant, people from all walks of life never had advanced "college" level courses in high school. It would be sad if schools overlooked these folks in the push for ever more challenging curricula. I remember reading that Stanford was attempting to de-emphasize AP courses in its admissions process, though how that is accomplished is not at all clear to me.</p>