<p>In the ever worse game of elite admissions we kids are taking more and more college courses in an effort to stand out. It is no longer eye-brow raising on CC to see Multivariable Calculus/Differential Equations Junior year or organic chemistry or the like.... after seeing an 8th grader in my online BC calculus class, nothing surprises me. Not to mention the slew of AP classes CCers take. </p>
<p>What ever happened to high school classes in high school and what will this mean for colleges in the future? I'm only a sophomore and I'll have about 40 credit hours of college credit at the end of this year in terms of APs and college classes. Many top colleges have eliminated pre-calculus classes completely, and have taken up all of single variable calculus in 1 semester. </p>
<p>I know my parents didn't take any college courses in high school, and when my mom was a college professor she only taught 1-2 college courses to high schoolers in her entire 20 year career. </p>
<p>Did you have any college courses in high school, and are your kids getting a head start?</p>
<p>Um... those things which you're calling 'college' level material is what most of the rest of the world calls 'high school' level material... </p>
<p>...so I'm quite happy to see such things becoming more common in American high schools so that we make at least some ground in catching up with everyone else.</p>
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Um... those things which you're calling 'college' level material is what most of the rest of the world calls 'high school' level material... </p>
<p>...so I'm quite happy to see such things becoming more common in American high schools so that we make at least some ground in catching up with everyone else.
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<p>So please enlighten me.. if the "college-level" material is "high school" to the rest of the world, then why do they come to the United States for college??????????????????</p>
<p>OP, I'm with you. Let high school be high school and college be college. Now I'm one who came into college with 18 credits that transferred. With 6 of those credits, I'm just under halfway to a minor in political science just like that.</p>
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Um... those things which you're calling 'college' level material is what most of the rest of the world calls 'high school' level material...</p>
<p>...so I'm quite happy to see such things becoming more common in American high schools so that we make at least some ground in catching up with everyone else.
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<p>From what I understand, Calculus I & II are usual in India for senior high school students. However, I think that Multivariable calculus/Differential equations in Junior year being common is unique only to CC. </p>
<p>I do have to admit we have a lot of catching up to do but I think that many CC students could compete in other countries.</p>
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OP, I'm with you. Let high school be high school and college be college. Now I'm one who came into college with 18 credits that transferred. With 6 of those credits, I'm just under halfway to a minor in political science just like that.
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Harvard has a class, which is only for freshmen, that requires multivariable calculus/linear algebra before taking it. After this, my sophomore year, I will need 1 more Spanish class before I'd be able to start a minor/major in Spanish (or related majors) at most colleges. I'll be doing multivariable calculus this summer... giving me two more years of post-calculus math before I'll even be starting college. I'll probably have as much math as your average State math major will have. Top schools would have plenty more classes for me to take, but state school won't. I think we are going to start seeing the top 100 or so colleges be so beyond the other colleges the degrees that won't even seem the similar.</p>
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International students often start off on higher-level courses.
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<p>I assume (in part because it looks as if you are an international student) that you mean international students in American schools. I don't think there's a problem if the best students from other countries are better than our average students. However, we are behind as a whole. Will you be starting out in higher-level courses than the majority of your Stanford peers?</p>
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So could someone please enlighten me as to why the average person needs this type of class? Is it something they would EVER use for real?
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<p>When you have other countries producing mobs of 'high school' graduates, educated in schools with higher standards, who are willing to work for far less than us Americans then we most certainly do have a really big problem!</p>
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So could someone please enlighten me as to why the average person needs this type of class? Is it something they would EVER use for real?
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<p>These are major courses for many non-humanities majors. Why does the average person need half of the courses in college? However, we'd have pretty boring people if we only learned the stuff we needed for our jobs.</p>
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When you have other countries producing mobs of 'high school' graduates, educated in schools with higher standards, who are willing to work for far less than us Americans then we most certainly do have a really big problem!
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<p>Okay, so we need to raise our standards. But don't we lose something by turning our children into robots? Do you think we should continue with pushing more college in high school or should we shorten high school. What's your solution?</p>
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Why does the average person need half of the courses in college? However, we'd have pretty boring people if we only learned the stuff we needed for our jobs.
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<p>Will taking calculus help you realize that you CAN'T afford that loan you want to take out? Probably not</p>
<p>Or how to balance a check book? No, having checks DOES NOT mean you have money in the checking account!</p>
<p>We are at a point where we have "brainiacs" who can't do simple stuff to survive. That is a problem.</p>
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Okay, so we need to raise our standards. But don't we lose something by turning our children into robots? Do you think we should continue with pushing more college in high school or should we shorten high school. What's your solution?
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<p>I don't think raising standards equates into turning our children into 'robots.' Proper education isn't about robotic memorization and regurgitation.</p>
<p>Again, you're saying that we're pushing 'college' into high school... I'm saying that this is all relative as in many parts of the world this 'college' level material IS high school.</p>
<p>We are at a point where we have "brainiacs" who can't do simple stuff to survive. That is a problem.</p>
<p>But that is not the fault of advanced courses in high school. Some of us, just have some parts of our brain that mature faster & other parts which are slower- need more reinforcing.</p>
<p>Forcing students to go slower in areas where they need to move ahead, is not going to help them catch up in the areas where they need more help.</p>
<p>Multivariable calculus and linear algebra are useful in computer graphics. They are also useful in styding physics. I imagine that they'd be useful in subjects such as oceanography and meteorology too.</p>
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We are at a point where we have "brainiacs" who can't do simple stuff to survive. That is a problem.
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I don't think we are honestly having this problem. If you are in calculus and haven't learned or figured out how to balance your budget, your problem does not lie in math. Other than the numerous applications of many math classes, they are helpful for critical thinking and help you gain mathematical maturity. While we could technically have high school graduates teach high school math, we wouldn't have the same quality of teachers. Consider though if we got rid of any classes that weren't needed in life. We'd be left with very little. I'm sensing some anti-intellectual vibes. ;)</p>
<p>It is my understanding that in other countries, there is more specialization, even at the high-school level. So it wouldn't be uncommon for a math/science student to take the advanced math courses at this level, but I think it would be unusual in other parts of the world for student who was planning on studying, say political science, in college to be taking mutivariable calculus/ differential equations in high school. </p>
<p>It is also my understanding that students in other countries also wouldn't need a slew of extracurricular activities etc. to be considered for 'elite' colleges. </p>
<p>I have no problem with students taking such advanced classes in high school. I do have a problem with the gamesmanship when it comes to taking these advanced classes--taking such classes just to show admissions officers that you are taking a rigorous schedule. I think it's a difficult line between taking a class because you are really interested and taking the class to help gain admission.</p>
<p>Many bright students want to challenge themselves in all areas and we have an educational philosophy and culture that supports and encourages this--even demands it. For such students, I think it is tough to say 'no' to taking fewer of these college level/AP classes in all academic areas, even it they want to. Yet I'm curious if it really matters to your future success if you have only taken 4 AP courses instead of 10--waiting a few years to take some of these courses rather than doing them in high school.</p>
<p>This is my last time trying to post on this thread, it got lost 3 times already!!</p>
<p>I think our public school system should focus more on writing rather than all of those AP courses. Due to resource constraint (teachers having too many students), writing assignments are far and in between. Often those assignments with corrections are not returned until much later when students have forgotten about those assignments. </p>
<p>My kids' private school has short writing assignments from English and history weekly, and long term papers from all of their classes, science included. Their work is returned to them in matter of days, so they could quickly incorporate what they have learned for their next paper. Their English and history tests are consist of essays rather than true/false or multiple choices.</p>
<p>My D1 struggled with writing in HS, but after 4 years of writing papers every week, it's become second nature to her. Now in college, as a math and econ major, she aces most of humanities courses. She is able to whip up a paper in a few days, whereas her classmates would struggle with it for weeks.</p>
<p>Our kids' HS have thought about doing away with APs because too many students were to focused on those courses and not taking many electives without AP designation. My daughter went to college with only 4-5 APs, but they were enough for her start on higher level courses in her majors.</p>
<p>I think the best skills my D1 took away from her HS were writing and time management, both very important in college and in real life. Her HS taught her how to manage demands of multiple ECs and rigorous workload. She is happy to take multi variable and linear algebra in college. I do question whether those AP courses in hs are are the same as college courses, especially at some more competitive schools.</p>
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o please enlighten me.. if the "college-level" material is "high school" to the rest of the world, then why do they come to the United States for college??????????????????
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<p>To a lot of international students, multivariable calculus, differential equations, organic chemistry, etc, are in fact high school material. My experience is that when they come here they either take these classes over as easy As or start out in higher level courses. I believe they come to the United States because we have many highly respected institutions with many resources.</p>
<p>Incidentally, learning these advanced topics in high school isn't really that big of a stretch. Many of my friends I met in college, many of whom attended private schools, were able to learn up to multivariable calculus, differential equations, and linear algebra in high school. They were smart but not exceptionally brilliant. They were exposed to a more rigorous math curriculum throughout elementary and middle school (as in schools of other countries), and were prepared enough to take on more advanced material in high school. With some drastic reform, I think that it would be very possible to challenge our top students more. </p>
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Yeah, but what use does that knowledge actually do me?
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I wouldn't say it's so much the knowledge as the ability to think critically and to keep your mind in shape. It may be true that the majority of people won't find much use for calculus, but it's important for us to continue to challenge ourselves an not to let other countries outperform us. We can't afford to lose our status as the world's leader in science and technology.</p>