<p>I'm starting to feel like there are people one the list that want someone to say that name, rank and reputation don't matter. I don't think that anyone, who's totally being honest, is going to be willing to make that assertion. Heck, whenever there's a discussion about Angela Bassett or Jody Foster or heck even the Ollsson twins, someone mentions where they went to school (Yale, Yale, and NYU, respectively). In fact, when I mentioned to one of the partners at my firm that my daughter was making a choice between a top 15 liberal arts school and an Ivy, he rambled off the top of his head 10 people at the firm that had went to the same school for undergrad. So it does appear to matter. </p>
<p>It also appears to matter to some banks. Did you know that at the Ivies and some of the higher ranks schools, students themselves, and not just the parents, can borrow up to the full cost of tuition? ( Is this confidence by the bank that students coming out of certain schools will earn enough to pay back their loans? or are they setting our kids up?)</p>
<p>Still I think there is definitely some debate about exactly how much it matters. The one thing that we all seem to agree on is that if you do well you will succeed. I have a friend who's father insisted (or shall we say strongly encouraged) that he go to an Historical Black College (inspite of the fact that he had gotten acceptances to Harvard, MIT and Yale) for undergrad and then he could consider an Ivy for grad school. (BTW money was NOT an issue). He chose Morehouse and has excelled. He's in the top 3 (not 3%) of his class. In fact, he's done so well that the summer after his sophmore year New York firms were fighting over him and the one he chose ultimately paid him $2000 a week to work for them. (Coming out of undergrad) He's been accepted to all of the same schools for his grad work and the firm that he worked for during the summer is offering to pay for it. Is this the norm? Heck no. Can this happen to your kid? Maybe. </p>
<p>What I told my daughter was this. People/employers/grad schools etc. are more forgiving the better the school you come from. For example, (and again I use law because that's my world), if you come out of Harvard Law you can finish in the bottom of your class and get a good law firm job (heck you can be dead last in your class); if you come out of a Georgetown, you can finish squarely in the middle of your class and get the same job as the Harvard grad (in most cases); if you come out of a George Washington law school you can finish in the top third and get the same job; and if you come out of a University of Maryland, you can finish in the top 10% of your class and get the same job.</p>
<p>I have to admit -- we were in lucky position. In college terms, we are actually poor. We don't feel poor, except when we look at college sticker prices. My d. knew from day one that if she didn't receive financial aid offers (and, as far as we were concerned, it is ALL merit aid - if they admitted her, they'd have to pay for her merit!) that were roughly 3/4s of the sticker price or more, she wouldn't be going. Period. End of story. We wouldn't ALLOW her to take out the big loans - we'd refuse to co-sign (she was 16). This was OUR decision - not hers. She'd spent a year at Evergreen (as part of her "high school" program - we homeschooled), and learned heaps, and we'd figure out a way to gerryrig a fine education without the dreamy spires if needed. (We had lots of experience doing that already.)</p>
<p>In retrospect, being so clear really made things a lot easier, and the scholarship gods shone down upon our little hovel.</p>
<p>Suze: Just a quick response here, but I'm intrigued by your comment.."Will we be just as happy if our prince never comes?" Hmmm...just as happy without the 'dream family' or the 'dream career' or, seemingly, the ultimate: the 'dream school.' The common theme here is that you are looking for something external to create your happiness for you. You can create your own 'dreams' and happiness anywhere you are, but that should come from within. Never look for that 'perfect' something that is out there (the 'dream prince' or the 'dream school') to make you happy. That's a real mistake.</p>
<p>Mini, Congrats to you and your daughter. We do our kids such a disservice by not being honest with them. My daughter has a friend who's parents let her apply to all of the Ivys and then just a few average schools only to tell her that once she got accepted (and she got accepted to ALL of them) that they couldn't afford it. If they had only been honest with her she could have applied to any number of really good, i.e. Duke, Washington U, schools that offer merit aid.</p>
<p>In a family discussion of taking relatively significant merit money at a more middle of the road school honor's program, versus choosing an Ivy or other elite, my brother-in-law, who is the ?general partner (is that what you call the top person, or is it a managing partner- where is 'The Practice' when you need it)....at a big law firm, and mighty successful, said- take the money- that the prestige of the grad school is the "driver" and that he would rather see the resume of a kid who went to a less lofty undergrad school and a more prestigious law school, than the other way around.</p>
<p>The reality is, however, at any given time the choice might not be yours. If at the moment you have the choice, and finances are not the primary concern, why not strike while the anvil is hot, and if the school suits you go for the 'name brand.' I would guess it is better to have prestigious undergrad followed by less prestigious law school than it would be less prestigious undergrad followed by less prestigious law school....maybe I am wrong??</p>
<p>Bottom line I want there to be not just "some" smart kids and great profs, I want there to be "mostly" smart kids and great profs...after all, it is costing me $40,000+/ year!!!</p>
<p>BTW I've informed my daughter that by paying for her college, I'm giving her her inheritance up front. Who says we have to wait til death? In fact, a lot of wealthy families do it because it cuts down on gift taxes and can actually ease your current tax burden. As you make your decision, don't forget to include your tax or estate planner. (And no, I'm not a tax attorney. :)</p>
<p>robyrm, I agree with your brother in law...a Harvard law/University of Maryland (or other state school) combo would be more sought after by a firm than a Uof M/Harvard undergrad. But there's lots of other things to consider, such as: 1. how likely is the person in the first scenario to get into a Harvard law? 2. What are the chances of an Ivy league undergrad not going to a top 25 law school? (U Mich. which is a state school has one of the best law schools in the country.)</p>
<p>I went to George Washington;not Ivy league, but top 25. We had quite a few Ivys in my class. (They probably got full rides and I didn't.) They all went to very good firms after law school as did I. The other thing to consider is this (and this is something brother-in-law may not know) in today's world the Ivy leagues are actually sometimes cheaper than they're lesser counter parts. By way of example, for law, GW was actually cheaper than some of the lesser rank schools in DC. And for undergrad, GW at $49k per year is actually more expensive than the Ivys. (UPenn is $44k).</p>
<p>I work in a hospital, and I overheard an intern the other day tell another intern that her monthly student loan payment is $1200 a month, and I know how much they make salary wise; she has no hopes of paying this and NOT living in a dump, or with 4 room mates etc. and that payment is for the next 10 years. she has 4 years to go in residency, and doctors starting out these days don't make that much money. I think that truly put a perspective on the amount of money I have borrowed for my son, and next year will have to borrow for my daughter, and what they themselves are borrowing. community college is great for the electives and "stuff" courses; english, math etc. then transfer to the major school. It's just my opinion, but I keep thinking about that intern wondering how she was going to pay her bills.</p>
<p>ProudMom...
I am gulping at the GW 49,000 though son was given 18,000 in merit. 31,000 is one thing, 49,000 (when you have other excellent options) seems incomprehensible...</p>
<p>If you could guarantee admission at a top school for grad school after attendance at a less prestigious (if cheaper) school-- sure, why not. But if you CAN'T...then why not take the plunge, go to the "better name" school IF it suits you, and then assume that if you do well, good things will happen...</p>
<p>I am having trouble refuting this logic...though I can understand that if you can ONLY go to a prestigious instution once, you would RATHER go for your terminal degree, whatever this might be.</p>
<p>Amith...
The biggest mistake medical students make is going to high priced medical schools when state schools are just as good for nearly every doctor whose planning to practice medicine. Going to elite medical schools, and assuming that debt, is only necessary if you want to have a career in academic medicine. The training at most state medical schools is at least as good as the private schools--</p>
<p>Jack, my point is that dreams die hard. This is a popular theme in literature that I believe is based in fact. I'm not sitting here waiting for the prince, but when I was growing up my key influencers told me someday my prince would come, I would have many beautiful children, go to a great college (as defined by popular culture) and live happily ever after among other things. Those not as jaded as I am hold on to these dreams well into adulthood. </p>
<p>What I've learned this week and during the ED aftermath was that it really doesn't work to tell someone who had their heart set on Yale that U Mich will make them just as happy. Perhaps in the end it really will. But U Mich wasn't in the fairy tale and well, we need to let the dream die slowly and the person rebuild without a lot of platitudes. They don't believe them anyway.</p>
<p>ProudMomMD - I find myself agreeing with you frequently! We started this process thinking that we'd be smarter than the pack, and find the sweet spot where our S would get the best financial deal at the best school. We weren't averse to public, even out of state, and kept reminding him that grad school is what matters. As products of the Cal State and UC system (we each have a degree from both) H and I couldn't see the point of paying for what we thought was prestige. </p>
<p>We've turned around 180 degrees! We also look at it as the case where we weren't able to save enough ahead of time, but we can pay over the next 10-15 years. And the kids had better not expect any big bucks when we are gone -- but we've worked on a basic premise for most of our married life. For the items that you use everyday - usually things like coffee makers and irons! - you should buy the best quality possible. What other product can you see an 18 year old using more than their education? Notice that I didn't say to buy the most expensive product -- just the best that you can afford.</p>
<p>ProudmomMD, one thing you should know is that among black students, many choose Morehouse and Howard over Harvard et al. Almost every top company, in the name of diversity, recruits at those schools. Every top grad school takes several from those schools each year. So for the black student who feels that it might be hard to stand out at Harvard where those employers or schools are concerned, a black college is a well know great strategy.</p>
<p>This is a debate that just won't quit much like the AA debates that go on here. So what's new? I recently bought a Volvo in a category where there are a Mercedes and a BMW for just a little more. Half of my friends think I'm nuts and the other half think I made a great purchase. The only difference I see here is the emotion. The need everyone seems to have to defend their choice because this is a huge chapter in parenting.</p>
<p>Robyrm, oddly enough my D was given $18k by GW in merit too. She got almost $9k in grants from UPenn and with federal loans and work study it came up to almost $18k as well. I know federal loans still have to be paid back, but I have over $85k in them and pay less for them than I pay for my car (a little over $400 a month.)</p>
<p>I stand corrected on attorney salaries, the amount I quoted was for attornies in firms with under 10 professionals, they essentially back out big law firms. </p>
<p>Dstark, I'm curious, given your philosophy, why did you choose to pay oos tuition for your dd rather than have her attend a UC?</p>
<p>Suze: I'm curious...Those people who don't want to hear and don't believe in 'platitudes'--now, are these the same folks who believe in the 'fairy tale' life, too? </p>
<p>I believe you can be grounded (and still dream big) without being jaded. I still believe (call it a platitude, if you like), that if are constantly looking for that external perfect 'dream' to bring you happiness, you are setting yourself up for disappointment--every time.</p>
<p>I've said it before, but I'm happy to say it again. This whole idea that there is this 'perfect fit' and 'dream' school (house, career, husband, wife, children--fill in the blank) I just find bizarre. Are all you people living in Lake Woebegone?</p>
<p>My philosophy is if you can afford it, send the kid where she wants to go to school. If money is an issue, you can get a great education at many places. Don't jeopardize your retirement. Don't put yourself in financial difficulties. Don't expect a big investment payback at the more expensive schools because the financials in the college business have changed over the last 25 years. Don't feel bad about yourself if you can't afford the costs. Drive, intelligence, and spirit are more important to a person's success than where you go to college.</p>
<p>My daughter wanted to go out-of-state. I said, "Fine. You graduate in four years". "If you go to a UC, take 5 years, I don't care". (I believe that is one reason the four-year grad rate at the UCs isn't higher).</p>
<p>So my daughter chose Michigan. She wanted to experience a different state. (I do think that is a good thing).</p>