<p>The Truman School was very genuine in their friendliness, warmth and welcome. I don’t feel it was a marketing ploy. I really think it would be a fabulous fit and he would feel special and happy. I know the “dream school” would challenge him and would be a completely different vibe unlike anything he’s experienced. He is a planner to the maximum. Very thorough and meticulous in his process of making decisions. He is a private pilot and a talented musician making deliberate practice and systems his complete comfort zone. I tend to go with feel and am way more spontaneous. It was nice to see him breathe and let someone sell him and see him relax. However, he is intense and likes calculated risks and the only reason we all got caught off guard was that he always plans and the Truman school was a FAR second choice and it surprised him at how wonderful he felt there. The other places we visited were as expected- no surprises. The poster “blossom” mentioned his first choice place and “dream school” which as of today he fulfilled his plan and sent off his ED application to that University. I am glad he’s decided. For a week it was “mom the flavor today is the “Truman School” or " today the flavor is back to " dream school” I’ve never seen him so persecuted about a decision. Everyone in this thread has shed VERY extremely valuable advice and I appreciate your input greatly. It helped me to be more grounded in order to help take the emotion out of it and go with just facts when he discussed his thought process. </p>
<p>JHS: But the student you refer to did not do research at the LAC, but at a large research university. That pretty much proves the point my professor friend was making: the opportunity for cutting edge research was not present at the LAC. That doesn’t mean a research U is right for every kid or that a student can’t find a way to do good research, just that the opportunities may not be right there. </p>
<p>I was going to post in this thread yesterday just as you announced S’s decision, but then didn’t as it seemed moot. Coming back today, my ‘draft’ re-appeared in the field. Maybe an omen? Well, now I’m going to post it anyway! >>> </p>
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This has not been our experience. My kids and others have been very much courted (not athletic recruits) by LACs like Williams, Swarthmore, W&L, Bowdoin and others. These are selective LACs not universities, of course, but they are selective and they absolutely pursue desirable students. In fact my kids chose LACs like the above over options like Stanford and a couple Ivies due in part to the ‘courting’, I’m sure. Or the ‘courting’ helped them to love the schools more.</p>
<p>I was also going to remark on the lack of response from Dream School as being something that might have given me pause, (depending on other factors as well, of course). We have experienced some very responsive and proactive behavior from universities (e.g. WUSTL department heads and admins reaching out to a student personally, unique campus overnight invitations, even Yale going above and beyond the norm) but also some pretty generic and even laconic or just absent communications! To me, being personally acknowledged in this process has value. And being actually ignored is frustrating at best. Maybe one difference is that none of my kids’ comparisons have been between/among schools with <em>very</em> different caliber academics. Different prestige levels, yes, if Stanford trumps Williams and Yale trumps Swat and WUSTL, etc. …but not vastly different academically. It has always seemed to us that a college valuing a student is a plus, not a sign of the school’s desperation or lesser quality. I don’t believe that higher quality has to go hand in hand with aloofness or lack of attention, warmth, friendliness etc.</p>
<p>It is very true, however, that admissions offices do not always accurately represent a college. Vassar College, for example, has a fairly disastrous admissions office – a poor ambassador for an excellent college. A few other colleges have unfortunate admissions personnel that might deter an applicant if you don’t keep it in context. But when both admissions and individual departments express unusual interest in an applicant, it is likely that will continue into the student’s experience after enrollment. Our experience has borne this out. </p>
<p>In this case the ED decision has been made, so Godspeed, and the outcome will be for the best. Your S has two different and equally exciting options available to him. Truly a win-win where the most difficult hurdle (the ED decision) is past!</p>
<p>mom2and: My point was that the LAC itself made it possible for her to get research experience at a major university. Obviously, it was true that the LAC did not offer the same kinds of research opportunities in its own labs, but this student did not miss out on involvement in cutting-edge research by going to the LAC, because the LAC made certain she would get it. It wasn’t a case of either/or; she got both/and.</p>
<p>I could also have mentioned another kid, who graduated in 2009 from a LAC in the top 20 or so (but not top 10). He got interested in a unique, custom major, and his college (a) funded his thesis research program in full – including three months of travel all over the continent, (b) because there was no one on the faculty who felt confident to supervise him, hired a professor at a research university a few hours away to supervise him, and © when he started a business that grew out of his research, funded that, too, and became its first customer. It was really a dream experience.</p>
<p>I am not saying that everyone should go to a LAC, or that LACs are better that research universities. I, my wife, and our children all preferred research universities. But the difference between them is not as simple as warm community with limited research opportunities vs. competitive community with cutting edge research. Good LACs can do a lot to make certain their students’ educational objectives are fully achieved.</p>
<p>JHS, that LAC gets a WOW IMHO. I suspect if you posted its name, lots of CC readers would apply to that college. It seems that LAC was supportive in every way possible. </p>
<p>I agree, I think sometimes who is on the front lines for different Universities is not always a good reflection of the experience. The “Truman school” was VERY personal and the “dream school” was fine… but just not personal or warm when it came to their method for attracting students or shall I say at least my student. He had once been invited to a college fair in our region for MANY top notch schools and we were impressed with many of the recruiters Vanderbilt, Stanford, Rice, Trinity, Brown, Cornell and so on…but let me say when we got to the Harvard guy…forget about it! Not only did he NOT scan my sons card to see his stats or interests but he came straight out and said “WE NEVER see anyone from your area or High School interested in applying to Harvard. Maybe one every 10-15 years. Do you have money?(than laughed) if so lets talk, otherwise it probably is not a fit.” I was standing behind my son and my jaw all but hit the floor. It was the most disgusting attitude imaginable. My son didn’t get to pick where we live or what high school he goes to but I can say this man was way out of touch and out of line. He also wasn’t aware of the growth and wonderful academic opportunities those students get from our area. He was an alumni representative that said he did out of town interviews for the region. I’m certain they would be embarrassed that he represented their school in that light. However, his pompous attitude was enough for my son to not even consider looking any further. He has intellectual curiosity not greed nor disdain for others. Sorry just venting- it still irks me that this guy was so incredibly rude. </p>
<p>In our experience, the courting from highly selective schools begins after acceptance, not before. It’s great that others had different experiences, but that was ours. It may be that the LAC’s do more courting than larger universities.</p>
<p>Too bad about the Harvard guy: Harvard can be a warm, inclusive and humane place. And admissions is very interested in recruiting students from schools that have never sent anyone there (as are many other colleges these days). And in the context of amazing financial aid, it is strange that the rep insinuated that the family would need a lot of money to make Harvard possible.</p>
<p>I would not have your son apply ED unless it is so clear he wants to go there and the ED applicants have a significantly higher acceptance rate than RD applicants. Of course the financial particulars have to be known and acceptable to your family at the ED school as well.
Applying RD would give your son and yourself more time to process where he truly would like to be. Planning is fine, ignoring what may be a better fit and better over all experience is not. Applying RD may alleviate some of the pressure your son is now feeling. Without knowing his stats and the schools involved it is more difficult to fully assess these circumstances. Primarily the likelihood of admission ED versus RD. No one here would advise in a way that would hurt his chances of admission at his preferred school.
Ideally an enjoyable experience should be a big part of the consideration not just academic rigor.</p>
<p>Very happy to say he was admitted to both the Truman school and the DREAM School and offered merit aid at both.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for the update! An embarassement of riches: what better situation to be in? 
Do keep us updated about his decision process.</p>
<p>Presumably this means triplehtc’s son will attend Dream School, as he applied ED there?</p>
<p>oops, sorry, I forgot triplehtc’s son had applied ED to Dream School. Did you get the financial aid offer? So it’s all decided, then?</p>
<p>Yes. He applied ED to his “Dream School” and they actually offered more merit aid than the “Truman school” so he definitely feels wanted and shown the love. Dream School ALL the way…he’s been committed to this place since he was a pup…so happy he hung on and didn’t give up or let his mom and dad sway him or dampen his dreams. He always knew what he wanted and I’m afraid there was a moment there where his father and I questioned his thought process. </p>
<p>For me, I didn’t have a “dream school.” I didn’t even want to leave home, but the fact that I chose a field to go into that the local state university didn’t offer forced me to look around. I finally found two schools that look like a “fit” for me, both state colleges with great options for scholarships that I could get that offer degrees in aerospace engineering. Both have been very welcoming and I started getting mail from my top choice that was relevant to my interests and informative to read. So, if you aren’t sure where you want to go, a schools trying to “buy” you may not be a bad choice as long as they have some academic caliber. </p>
I’m coming a bit late to this excellent thread. Congratulations to the OP and son!
Within this thread, there was some discussion about choosing an undergraduate school for students interested in science. I just wanted to give my perspective on choosing an undergraduate college for science majors (especially those interested in a research career) and what I deem to be important.
My background, not to sound boisterous but just to give you an idea about my experiences. I have a phd in biology (molecular bent), have spent twenty years in research, been head of lab with continuous NIH funding for many years, and directed a summer research program for undergraduate students at a research hospital. My undergraduate degree was from a large state flagship university, phd from an ivy league school, and postdoc research at a southern ivy university. (My D who is interested in science will attend a LAC)
For a student considering entering a research career, hands down the most important aspect of choosing an undergraduate school in the opportunity to participate in hypothesis-driven, open-ended research, not cookbook stuff performed in “lab classes” attached to courses. Research done in grant funded academic labs is so different from lab courses that the student without such research experience will have no idea what their career choice is truly like.
Heads of research labs don’t spend time in the lab… they spend time in their offices reading and writing and giving presentations. Learning how to write effectively and speak in front of others is invaluable in a science career.
There is a lot of rejection in being an academic scientist. You need a tough skin. Most hypotheses are not validated, most experiments don’t “work”, papers get rejected, most grant applications are rejected (NIH funding rate of a grant is <10%… it’s like applying to an ivy league school for your entire career!).
As an undergrad, this hypothesis-driven research I think is crucial can be performed at a LAC department with good facilities and knowledgeable faculty or at a large university. For undergrad, I don’t think this matters too much. Just get in a lab with a pipet in your hand doing experiments where you don’t know the answer beforehand and have to analyze and interpret the data. This is very important. If neuroscience is your career goal (for example), it doesn’t matter if the undergrad college has a neuroscience major. The actual research topic is unimportant at this stage. Mentorship is huge; I can’t stress this enough. Someone needs to teach you “how to do science”. Also huge is the opportunity to actually get in the lab… this may be a drawback at some large research universities and is a strong point of many LACs. You may not be performing epigenomic research at a LAC lab, but it doesn’t matter… what matters is learning the hands-on scientific process.
As is well-known, faculty at large universities are not there for the undergrads; they are there to get funding for their lab to continue their research. Obviously, this is not a recipe for great undergrad teaching. They are there to mentor graduate students and postdocs… again largely as a means to get data for their publications and grant applications. Of course, there are some faculty at large universities that also focus some attention undergrads, but this is the exception rather than the norm.
If you happen to attend a LAC-like school, perform research in a grant-funded lab during the summer or during the academic year (if the LAC is close by a medical school, independent research institute, or research hospital). There are a plethora of such opportunities, both in formal programs and informally (just ask and, more importantly, show interest and a willingness to work hard). This will get you exposed to life in a grant-funded lab… it’s a completely different animal than a lab at a LAC.
Graduate schools are looking for applicants that do well in undergraduate courses but also have some lab experience. You can attend a top research university for graduate school from a lower level college. It’s totally up to you.
Manifesto over… good luck to all!
@dadof1 Thanks for that description. It will come in useful in our house too.
Congrats!
@dadof1 I wish more people could read your “manifesto” that is buried down in this thread with an unrelated title. Maybe post it on its own? I’m having my D read it, in any case. Thanks!
I totally agree, and this subject comes up a lot when people start talking about waiting lists. Junior loved school X, but when he was taken off the wait list, he declines because he had wanted to be wanted. I get that, but really and truly that sentiment is too much about ego and not enough about exactly what that school can offer. Once school starts, NOBODY knows who was offered a spot first or who came off the wait list. The professors don’t “want you” more than the kid from the wait list. The kid will never interface with the admissions office again after that whole process is over, so imo it should have little to do with final decisions.
This is an incredibly helpful post-thank you @dadof1. One question; how do you find “hypothesis-driven research” colleges? How do you tell the difference, as a kid (and her parent) looking at the shiny brochures that are flooding in, between the cookbook research and the hypothesis-driven research? Where does one go digging for this info?
Also, congratulations to the OP’s son for ED to his dream school!