<p>Yikes, too many posts to read all…sorry for this ramble but several thoughts…
It is well known that certain schools have a great deal more MONEY than others. This places them in a favorable position. Just a remark to remember - no other real point.
“Quality” and “production” of a university (success of the educational experience?!) are not equivalent of the influence of MONEY…
Don’t be blinded by the super effect of super endowments and resources - that then attract MORE resources from wealthy daddies who then get their names on certain professional schools (as happened here locally)
I live right next to a major west coast private university that is desperate to be labeled “ivy.” I know this because their publicity to this effect is unavoidable. Sorry, I don’t have the reference but their student newspaper had a story about their extreme desire to go higher vs. the ivy league schools in the rankings. Sure this school CARES.
Wow this sure distorts the entire idea of learning and education.
Funny how college is now really COMPETITION.
Yikes, I thought it was education and personal growth and hoping to be in a position to contribute to the country and the world.
But it’s perception and money (of colleges/universities) that has the most effect, sadly.
What about achievement? I am CERTAIN students receive fine educations and accomplish remarkable things (as their profs do) ALL OVER this country, yet only a handful of schools have the resources to PROMOTE and PUBLICIZE themselves effectively! And I shudder about international perceptions where some schools are not even known and are overlooked or put down (“never heard of it” - AND not interested! - from an overseas friend about the fine very near top university one of my kids attends!
Also, on Ivy League mystique:
It seems laugable to me - knowing what the ivy league was, originally - it is not a big deal to ME, but it certainly is (as is USNWR rankings) to many people, especially our Pacific Rim first/second gen families here in Silicon Valley. In my experience, they take each exact “ranking” with extreme seriousness and give the corresponding level of respect they believe is “correct.” I have seen situations like a kid who got in to a top school put down another choosing to attend one something like TWO points lower! Learn to distinguish meaningless differences from meaningful differences. In reality, socioeconomic level of both of their sets of parents ought to be given a silent thanks and pulling ivy on someone should be refrained from!
Talk about POWER these few schools exert - sure, they’ll put in the apps - the # of apps has gotten to the point (among wealthy Silicon Valley ppl) to be laughable because applicants can’t possibly be suitably familiar enough with the schools (we are far away) and there has been a phenomenon of some (again, those with $$$) to put in more apps just to see if they can get more offers than their peers - straight competition.
Umm what about intended area of study, fit with the school, geographic benefits and other intangibles of schools all around this country?! - not given appropriate consideration in current times.
To students, I enourage you to think broadly and creatively for your education - like an early poster, I also admire Reed (know a top student who received an excellent education there but otherwise do not have any affiliation) and Reed’s president - smart folks. Try to resist the pressure to believe USNWR is the final word, but use it as one tool to provide broad guidelines to possibly suitable schools. Another thing, if you do get to know college students attending a variety of schools, you will realize the INDIVIDUAL is mostly what counts. Their are great students all over this country.</p>
<p>"So full tuition waivers from state schools are getting ignored in favor of going to a much better private school which will only provide FA. "</p>
<p>There are a lot of high stat kids turning down offers from elite/pricey privates for state schools with lots of merit aid.</p>
<p>Glido -True - it goes the other way too. It happens quite a bit when colleges say you make 100,000 and you can afford our 55,000 price tag by borrowing a lot of money.</p>
<p>Pizza girl is spot on. Many exceptional kids will happily attend their in-state flagships and top schools in Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin etc. and they can get an excellent equivalent education to what they can get in the Top 10 of the NE. Most parents, as Hanna points out, believe that the NE elite colleges are “too expensive.” The entire reason that elite NE schools scour the country is so that they can make statements like we have kids from all 50 states and to maintain their national awareness. Certainly that can sway a high achieving kid from attending Illinois or such especially with the financial incentives – a friend of my S2 picked Harvard over UofM two years ago because it was cheaper… but they aren’t doing it to get these kids in high numbers. They know they can pick the kids they want from their region…there are more kids than they need in their backyard. They know they can cherry pick the internationals and first gen American kids of certain immigrant populations. It’s relatively “cheap” to to do a mass mailing…and everyone here has pointed out the reasons why they do these mass mailings and I’m sure the expectations are that 1-2% will react and apply which might garner them another handful of exceptional students that fit their needs.</p>
<p>Also every business has some niggling worry that they will fall from grace or become socially extinct, colleges are no exception. So even though HYP have a long and hallowed history they have essentially two missions to fulfill: maintaining their elite status among the first families and feeder schools and now to “educate” with geographic and social diversity. Their mission is no longer simply to fill their class with first families, feeder schools and the best in their region. They are the ones who broadened their scope to include the entire world. To do that they takeaway seats that were previously filled with first families, feeder schools and the best in their region.</p>
<p>Face it, the globalization and flattening of information through technology has enabled kids from all kinds of backgrounds to rise and excel in life to become the country’s leaders. The entire premise that future captains of industry will only come from the halls of HYP no longer hold. Even the IB stronghold ties that HYP held and political machine has fractures in the foundations and is on the precipice of seismic shakeouts. Only time will tell if those strongholds will survive. The old boy network and now old girl network is third or fourth generation at many of the strong colleges across the country and no longer is “exclusive” to the NE top schools. Mass mailings are a tiny, tiny drop in the arsenal of these colleges to hang onto their history and vision and to grab from the entire country.</p>
<p>Finally if some 1/2 American Indian brilliant kid in the Upper Penninsula who was planning on going down the road to Michigan Tech gets a mass mailing from MIT I guarantee you the first reaction would be “I never thought about this.” If it actually induced the kid to apply, which would be a long shot, he’s probably get in and MIT would have a 1/2 American Indian brilliant kid from the Upper Pennisula and be very, very happy they did that mass mailing. No harm no foul.</p>
<p>We are going off on tangents here. My posts are in reference to 11th hour marketing blitzes only. The number of high achieving high stat kids who, in December of their senior year, are oblivious to the finaid policies of the super selective schools is close enough to ZERO that you can eliminate this as a motive for said ‘11th hour marketing blitzes’. That is my opinion. Others may disagree but offering up hyperbolic hypothetical scenarios that could have been drawn up by the PR departments of these schools themselves should not persuade anyone otherwise. I don’t see why these schools deserve or need apologists.</p>
<p>The brilliant American Indian kid from the UP who hears from MIT for the first time in December of his senior year does not exist. What, was he in the witness protection program up until November of his senior year? Why is he hearing from them for the first time only after EA/ED results come out? Read the OP’s post…</p>
<p>I read Pizzagirl’s post and I agree almost entirely as I usually do. I just don’t think it applies to what we are talking about in this specific thread. The counselors in Wilmette/Northbrook/Vernon Hills/Grayslake/Antioch/wherever may not have the pedigree of those at Harvard-Westlake or Phillips Exeter but they are not idiots either. They are ALL aware of Harvard’s finaid policy as well as who their top students are. There is not a top student at any of these schools who needs a random brochure in the mail from Harvard in December of their senior year to tell them what their finaid policy is (Newsflash: if you get your first piece of mail from Harvard in December of your senior year check the envelope to see if it is addressed to “sucker” or if they bother the spell out your real name). Even if the counselors didn’t know, the classmates do. With all due respect, it simply does not matter what some look-e-loo at the library gasps at. If their kid is in the ballpark they would have learned about the finaid policy long before December of senior year.</p>
<p>" The brilliant American Indian kid from the UP who hears from MIT for the first time in December of his senior year does not exist."</p>
<p>Well sort of… I had no intention of applying to my HYP alma mater until after Thannksgiving of my senior year – I had already been accepted early at UMich and was only going to apply to a few more engineering colleges. No HYP was ever on my radar – never really knew a single Ivy grad. I came from an immigrant family and attended an urban school district’s top magnet school. </p>
<p>I drove a friend to an info session hosted by the local alumni club the Friday after Thanksgiving. Was so impressed that I went home that night and pulled out the app from my pile of college mailings. They nabbed me instead. Applied, got it, matriculated. </p>
<p>I’m the product of one of these “last minute” pushes.</p>
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I agree that it would be odd for there to be many such students who are hearing from these schools for the first time, unless maybe their most recent test scores put them over the line into the band that gets mailings. But it certainly could be that the later mailing is the one that gets the kid to decide to apply–I think there probably are quite a few kids who decide to add to their list after EA results come out–and like any other kind of advertising, what you see when you are thinking about the product may be especially influential.</p>
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<p>Shockingly, there are bright students in the Chicago area who don’t live in well-to-do areas such as Wilmette or Northbrook, whose GC’s are handling several hundred kids, cannot give personalized attention and are basically of little use in the college search process. Even more shockingly, there are bright students who live in rural areas (such as Annasdad’s daughter), who, if she had remained in her high school, would never be exposed to the idea of attending the more elite schools. My D attends a top LAC which has about 10 - 12 students from the greater Chicago area. Some of them went to the “name” private and / or public high schools and undoubtedly had high quality counseling; others didn’t. The “well, the kids in Wilmette and Northbrook will do ok” is sort of a let-them-eat-cake mentality.</p>
<p>Actually if I recall correctly my older son (top 1% of his class) did not get a brochure from Harvard until December of his senior year. I was sort of surprised since we’d heard from just about every other college in the country by then!</p>
<p>Amusingly yesterday in the gym a guy was saying that his kids wouldn’t be looking at anything beyond a SUNY because that was what they could afford. I pointed out that Harvard was free if you made less than $60,000, most had vaguely heard it, but it never really occurred to them that there might be good deals other places too unless athletic scholarships were involved. But yes, here in the NYC suburbs, even the non chi-chi ones, I think Harvard’s financial aid policy is pretty well known by top students.</p>
<p>YZamyatin, you will of course disagree with me. There are plenty of these brilliant first gen college students who believe it or not, haven’t spent the last four years of their lives fantasizing about being at Stanford or Princeton. They don’t have “an applications strategy” or a full time helicopter parent making spreadsheets and resumes and color coding their college files. And they don’t have a guidance counselor who roams the hallways grabbing kids to say, “You ought to apply to Hopkins- they are need blind” or “I just heard that Dartmouth gives generous financial aid”.</p>
<p>These kids often have an adult in their life- maybe a parent, maybe an aunt or uncle, maybe a teacher- who will say, “you are really smart and hard-working and you should go to college”. So by November of senior year he/she has applied to their own State U, or maybe a college in a nearby town, and perhaps a former State Teacher’s college which is an hour away. That’s their application strategy. Their GC is busy testifying in court for a kid who needs to be emancipated because mom’s BF is abusing her, and the school principal is working with law enforcement to develop a zero tolerance policy after a kid got shot outside the HS last week. Who do you think holds these kids hands to tell them about Harvard and Cornell? Who do you think even notices some of these kids if they’re not in trouble or in jail?</p>
<p>I interviewed for my alma mater in two different parts of the country and it was an eye-opener to see the stark contrast between the college-crazed “strivers” who came from two parent homes with a full time chauffeur (usually mom), plus a “die or die trying” ethos when it came to elite college admissions. And then there was everyone else. </p>
<p>Don’t assume that every talented 18 year old in America understands what need-blind admissions means. Don’t assume that every brilliant HS senior has an application strategy or understands what FAFSA is or why they may qualify for financial aid- especially if this kid comes from a disadvantaged home where family finances aren’t discussed other than the kids knowing that when it comes to money they don’t have any. Harvard’s financial aid policy is pretty well known by top students IF you already know someone who has gone to Harvard and IF you assume that the kid even knows he’s a strong candidate for Harvard. Neither of these conditions exist in many HS in America. Sadly.</p>
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<p>Exactly. There’s no blindness like the blindness of upper-middle-class privilege and affluence, is there? “well, gosh, OUR counselors tell the kids about Harvard and Cornell, and everyone at the country club knows, so it’s just not possible that some smart kid somewhere hasn’t heard of these colleges.” Get real.</p>
<p>I think many of you are missing the points or are trying to direct the conversation to areas where no one is disputing. No one here is arguing that everyone knows all the ins and outs or there is underprivileged folks who need more help, but again, what are the vast majority of people that got this mass mailing marketing blitz? And is it all about getting all these poor and out of the way kids? I am not sure why we keep going to point that is tangential the original question?</p>
<p>I just love the quoting of the opposing views that lead to something else entirely different.</p>
<p>“what are the vast majority of people that got this mass mailing marketing blitz?”</p>
<p>All we know about them, and likely all Harvard knows about them, is that they had good SAT scores. A whole lot of them will be middle-class kids from suburbs like the one where I spoke last week. Others will be knowledgeable kids from Greenwich who can just throw it away if they are not interested.</p>
<p>Let’s assume for a moment that everybody anyone cares about (i.e., smart kids who might be legitimate Harvard candidates, including on diversity criteria) already has at least had access to information about Harvard’s quality and financial aid policies. Even then, that doesn’t guarantee that the kids are actually thinking about Harvard as the final deadline approaches. One may have “decided” not to apply to Harvard months ago. (He read a College Confidential “chances” thread that told him because he was Asian he shouldn’t apply unless he had 2500 SATs and IMO medals in more than one year.) A father who forbade another to apply to anywhere more than 10 miles away has died, or left, or simply softened his stance. Someone else may have gotten emancipated. And of course someone may have been deferred or rejected when she applied ED to Wharton.</p>
<p>From a sales/marketing standpoint, it would be laughable to suggest that if all those kids at some point in the past two years had access to decent information about Harvard, there’s no need to nudge them now, or tug on their sleeves. (If my firm marketed ourselves that way, we would all be living on the street.) If you want them to apply to Harvard, it’s clearly a good idea to remind them to think about Harvard at the last reasonable time when they are making decisions and taking action.</p>
<p>IF you want them to apply to Harvard. That’s the only real question here. IF getting more qualified kids to apply to Harvard is a good thing, then this late mailing is a good thing. If getting more qualified kids to apply to Harvard isn’t a good thing, and misleading kids (slightly), or getting their hopes up (temporarily), or getting more UNqualified applicants is a bad thing, then the late mailing is a bad thing.</p>
<p>I understand the arguments, but I doubt you would ever convince an admissions department that more qualified applicants is a bad thing, except on the basis that the marginal cost of the mailing and the extra personnel necessary to process the increased inquiries and applications exceeded the value of the additional kids you would accept. That may even be true – Harvard probably doesn’t get much value out of that last mailing relative to cost, and maybe the return on investment is negative. But, honestly, they don’t seem to care about their own costs. And apart from that I think the good-thing arguments would absolutely carry the day in any admissions office.</p>
<p>Part of the reason for the late fall mailings: many HS seniors take their standardized tests in late fall of their senior year of HS. Maybe not in the alternate universe that is CC, but statistically this is true (and in practice I know it to be) - particularly for the kids who go to urban, rural, or other HS with a less obsessive college-going culture and/or informed GCs and may be just the audience that these schools are looking for (that someone earlier said must not exist or else they’d already know…please!).</p>
<p>Until the student takes a standardized test, fills out the “about me” address information, and then CB/ETS sells it to the college, the college has no way to contact that kid unless the kid independently already signed up for its mailing list (which we established was the whole point of the mailing campaign - if they were already prospects there’d be no point!).</p>
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<p>Yes it is. I don’t know anyone who shares that mentality (who are you quoting?). You can’t cherry pick the first two (of five) towns I mentioned, which were listed roughly in order of descending affluence as anyone familiar with the area would recognize, and honestly believe the above quote is an accurate reflection of anyone’s views here. I guess I should have put Waukegan or North Chicago on the back of the list but somehow I doubt that would have impeded the construction of your straw man.</p>
<p>I’m not going to respond to every poster who can think up exceptions of high schools that are so off the beaten path or screwed up that their truly superstar students benefit from these last minute mailings. Obviously they exist and colleges are happy to find them when they do. Fair enough. I am not persuaded though that this is the primary reason for the last minute blitzes.</p>
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<p>“Get real”</p>
<p>Good advice…</p>
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<p>That is no doubt true. </p>
<p>I think they have a near impossible job of differentiating between these kids. Encouraging 10s of thousands more apps than they themselves admit they need only makes the job even more difficult. Presuming there is no leakage in quality control (weeding out authenticity from in-authenticity specifically) with this additional workload is the height of hubris in my opinion. But that’s the presumption they make, in my limited exposure to them.</p>
<p>Theoretically, Harvard (I heard Dartmouth but I have not seen their supplement) can remind someone on December 31st to apply and people would be able to file the supplement on 1st. The reason is that they have one essay without a topic (pick your own) that is optional. So it takes about 20-30 minutes to file assuming the applicant has the common app ready.</p>
<p>@Blossom, I think you are right that there are the college-crazed strivers and everyone else, but for me, the fact most students are in the later category, is exactly why the December mailers are so nonsensical. By and large, these mailers are not gonna bring in apps for some undiscovered genius or world game-changer. They are causing the ordinarily informed (or in this case, misinformed) kid to apply, who now thinks he has a shot, when in fact, we all know the odds are very much against him. To pull together an amazing application at that time is simply very unlikely. To me it’s like a commercial to buy more lottery tickets when the lotto goes up–very long odds, indeed.</p>