<p>Pizzagirl,
My problem with your analysis is that it assumes that everyone who attends an Ivy is perfectly happy with the athletic scene there, or else they would not have attended. This is not true, and I am the parent of the living proof of it. Students choose Ivies (and any university) for many reasons, one of which may or may not be the quality of the athletic scene.</p>
<p>I am the parent of 2 Ivy admits. Both grew up in a household that intensely supports collegiate sports. Like most applicants, each chose their university for complex reasons that ultimately required them to compromise on the major-sports athletic scene (one actually preferred Stanford because of its sports scene, but was rejected). Both would love it if their u’s had more school spirit/Div. 1 success.</p>
<p>Hawkette, maybe they tell you these things because they know that you’re obsessed with sports and view a big time sports scene as an incredibly important measure of a school. As the graduate of an Ivy school, the parent of two Ivy Leaguers and the sister of another (representing three different schools), I can tell you that while occasionally someone mentions the tennis, squash or basketball team, there have been no occasions over the last several decades when anyone I went to school with or whom I know from another Ivy League school has bemoaned the sports scene and said, “ah, if only we were more like Duke”. And I asked my daughter (who is a current Princeton student) and she said that she has also not had such a conversation.</p>
<p>midatlmom,
Ivy students/grads have a lot of pride in their schools and rightfully so. They’re terrific colleges. Most students are happy there and their Freshmen Retention rates are among the very highest in the land. I’m not saying that students are walking around hanging their heads wishing they could have gone to Duke or Notre Dame (although I"m sure that more than a few wished they could’ve gone to Stanford). </p>
<p>But could the student experience be even better for some students if there was a football scene like what you’d find at Stanford or Vanderbilt or a basketball scene like what you’d find at Duke or a baseball scene like what you’d find at Rice? (I’m not even bringing up Northwestern as p’girl is sure to go crazy on me) And all of this happened without sacrificing the academic integrity of the school? Those are the questions that I am asking. Some, like you, may answer no. Others, like Bay’s child, might want it.</p>
<p>Just curious, do your kids really have these conversations with their friends? I’m not doubting you, just a little surprised. While I know that occasionally some Ivy Leaguers wish that they had a more competitive basketball or football team, most of the kids I know (and most of my friends) are/have been extremely happy with their college experiences, academically, socially and from an extracurricular standpoint. Both of my kids were athletes in high school and they use the gym extensively and one plays a club sport. However, there are so many things to do on campus and so many opportunities, that’s it’s hard to fit everything in and they really don’t notice if their sports teams are winning everything. </p>
<p>Everyone in my family loves sports and I watch sports obsessively on tv and go to as many games as possible. However, I believe that there are certain tradeoffs to having big time sports on campus, such as athletes getting a disproportionate share of attention and thinking that they can do anything, the recruiting of certain athletes who are not academically up to snuff, teams missing class due to practices or bowl games etc. There are also benefits–as Hawkette notes, it’s a lot of fun to go to big time games. However, on balance, I thought that my experience at Princeton was exceptional and I really wouldn’t have changed it. And I believe that the existence of the big time sports model definitely changes a school.</p>
<p>“Those are the questions that I am asking.”</p>
<p>Yes, and you keep asking, and asking. No matter how many times you get answered. Overwhelmingly the same answers, to the same question. Each and every time.</p>
<p>You might just as well ask whether there are people at these other schools who wish their schools did not have this obsessive sports scene. Maybe some of them feel it is an unecessary sideshow. Please make 10 threads addressing this question instead. Then each time community members of these institutions respond to your thread, three weeks later start another thread on the identical subject, implying they are intellectually vacant for subsidizing paid gladiator professional athletes on ther campus, masquerading as students. That their schools somehow suffer by their presence, and don’t they really wish they became more like the Ivy league schools that don’t operate that way, to such an extent.</p>
<p>And then each time the community members of these other schools respond to this identical line of posting, post the same thing again.</p>
<p>and Again.</p>
<p>and Again.</p>
<p>Let them keep having to respond to a never-ending stream of repeated allegations, based on one individual’s personal preferences which he self-righteousy feels all people must share in equal measure, as if they represented some universal truth.</p>
<p>Guess what… they don’t ! Most of us really, really don’t care !! More than don’t care, actually on balance we don’t want it!! That’s what has been posted here, over and over, by numerous posters, the vast majority.</p>
<p>But you’ve been ignoring this same point for nine other threads now, so…</p>
<p>midatlmom,
I do not know if my kids actually have these conversations with their friends but they have them with me. They have been collegiate sports fans their entire lives, and I am certain that if you asked them, they would tell you they would be thrilled if their u’s offered a bigger sports scene. The one enrolled (the other will start in the Fall at a different Ivy) is extremely happy with her experience, but acknowledges that it is not perfect. </p>
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</p>
<p>I think you are articulating stereotypes here. The “share of attention” issue seems silly to me (no offense). Non-athletes who are “not academically up to snuff” are admitted to Ivies, and most Ivy League athletes are in fact, academically qualified. Ivy League athletes have the same number of practice hours as non-Ivy athletes (about 3 hours per day, 6 days per week), as regulated by the NCAA.</p>
<p>No offense taken, but I think that there is a sense of entitlement among athletes on certain campuses. I don’t want to get into specifics, but there have been many situations where athletic teams and members have engaged in inappropriate behavior and the school has winked at it. In addition, the existence of academic coaches and specific academic centers just for athletes is a well known fact. At Duke, for example, the school recently finished construction on the $15.2 million “Center for Academic Excellence” for student athletes.
I’m not aware of similar centers for student dancers, thespians, politicians etc. many of whom expend huge amounts of time on their extracurricular activities.</p>
<p>You may be correct about practice hours (I don’t know the NCAA or Ivy rules), but the Ivies have a shorter football season, do not start their practices as early as highly competitive teams and refuse to allow their teams to compete in bowl games because it would mean an additional week away from classes.</p>
<p>If you had a nickel for every time an Ivy-affiliated person on CC told you that they were quite happy with the athletic situation at their Ivy, didn’t want to fix what wasn’t broken, and thought that fixing the situation would potentially compromise the character of the school, you’d be rich too!</p>
<p>Eww. Are you serious? I understand building gyms and training facilities, of course, but special dedicated space for tutoring, computer resources, and team study spaces? What, they’re so precious they can’t use the library like everyone else? </p>
<p>And “team study space” makes me laugh – what, all the basketball players are in the same classes? Things that make you go hmmm … </p>
<p>THIS, Hawkette, is why the Ivy folks overwhelmingly don’t want to be like the Dukes of the world. What’s so “superior” about a place that elevates athletes like this?</p>
<p>“If I had a nickel for every time that some Princeton alum told me about their basketball upset of UCLA or some U Penn alum told me about their great basketball arena or some Cornell alum crowed about their hockey and lacrosse, then I’d be rich”</p>
<p>Boy…you must know a lot of Ivy Leaguers. Or the few Ivy leaguers must repeat themselves over and over and over and over…</p>
<p>Actually, there aren’t enough Ivy league alums who are alive times .05 to make a person rich. </p>
Oh please, do you honestly think that a thespian or a budding politician is comparable to a Duke basketball player? Athletes get preferential treatment because they bring in a lot of revenue to the school and improve its image in the media.</p>
<p>High-profile athletes excite the alumni base, help their school(s) get greater recognition and even improve their school(s) selectivity because more applicants apply in the general pool because of the increased fame of the institution(s).</p>
<p>Stop being so socialist. Just like in the management consulting world you work in, there are some who are higher on the ladder of importance than others. DEAL WITH IT.</p>
<p>The day thespians bring in as much revenue to their schools through theater performances as the Duke basketball player do to Duke University is the day when thespians and others who belong to different niches will deserve their own “Center for Academic Excellence”.</p>
typically not true … the IVY league places limitations on the teams that are more strict than the NCAA limits … football spring practice rules in the IVY league are much more limiting than the NCAA regs for example.</p>
<p>While this is a somewhat interesting abstract topic (maybe not 10 times but once) … it is an abstract topic. For the IVYies to match the athletic experience of other schools it would require much more than just saying it will be done … they would need to totally change their approach to sports. They would need to </p>
<ul>
<li>offer athletic scholarships </li>
<li>get into the coaching salary arms race </li>
<li>ditch the academic index and let in substantially less qualified students </li>
<li>ditch thier rules limiting practice/team time</li>
<li>spend zillions on facilities</li>
<li>etc</li>
</ul>
<p>The IVYies approach athletics with the almost exact opposite approach as the big-time sports schools … the IVYies are much smaller and have many more varsity teams and many more varsity athletes … it’s about a lot of their students who also do something else; compete in a sport representing their school … meanwhile the big-time sports schools sponser few sports; bring in athletes who often otherwise could never attend the schoo;; spend big bucks hoping to make big bucks in return and to generate Hawkette’s buzz.</p>
<p>I’ll repeat the refrain … it’s a very diffferent model … what’s wrong with more than one model. I’m a Cornell grad and I’d love for Cornell to win the NCAAs in hockey and lacrosse (I was at the OT NCAA final loss a couple weeks ago). I’m sure lots of IVY grads would like their teams to be better and for their to be a bit more buzz about their teams … however if you then ask what current sports principle they would give up to move up the sports ladder I believe the ranks would thin considerably.</p>
<p>Given my understanding of demands placed on athletes playing revenue sports at Div I schools, I think the question is not whether they need these spaces (it’s pretty clear to me that they are put to good use) but WHY they do and what this says about the demands & expectation we place on these kids. </p>
<p>Being a college student is (or should be!) a full-time job. Especially when your preparation may be less than that of many of your peers. Yet these athletes have a second full-time job on top of that (being an athlete), to the enormous gain to the university.</p>
<p>There are a lot of things that trouble me about this situation. Dedicating an academic center to these scholar-athletes is a not the problem–it’s the bandaid they’re applying to a problem that needs a more serious solution.</p>
<p>midatlmom and 3togo,
Yes, I am familiar with the differences between athletics at scholarship schools and the Ivies, and the compromises/changes that might be required for the Ivies to become more competitive. I am not intending to argue those finer points, rather I am trying to dispel the blanket statement made in this thread that everyone at the Ivies must be happy with the way things are, or they wouldn’t be there.</p>
<p>The Ivies are much more geographically diverse than they were in the 1950s. There are now many, many students from Texas, California, and other states where collegiate sports are an exciting, respected component of many kids’ lives. I think Hawkette’s inquiry is a legitimate one - universities need to evolve - this is just one area that is worth discussing, imo.</p>
It is a big deal. But winning it? Not so much. Look, I was in the Yale Precision Marching Band for four years, and I can’t tell you who won any of the games. I don’t care now, and I didn’t care much then. To elevate sports to a big deal at the Ivies would be a significant culture change, and I can’t honestly see that very many Ivy students or alums want it. As 3togo points out, it would require other changes that would be unpalatable to many alums as well.</p>
<p>Why, actually, yes, I do. In fact, they are more relevant to the role / mission of a university than a basketball player. </p>
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<p>Well, obviously not all alumni bases are as energized or would be as energized. I don’t hear Hawkette saying that U of Chicago, Caltech or MIT should want high profile athletics, just the Ivies for some reason. </p>
<p>I personally don’t care about “general recognition” among the masses, nor am I impressed with the kind of people who apply to a school only because they heard it’s got a good football / basketball team (unless they are players themselves). </p>
<p>And oh, Hunt, I’m certain there was at least <em>one</em> person in the Yale marching band who could tell you who won the games!</p>
Well, the YPMB always won, and that’s what really mattered to us. But I would say that many of the band members were only dimly aware that there was a football game going on.</p>
<p>And presumably if those students were so terribly interested in schools with big time collegiate sports and all that comes with it they would have gone to such a school. </p>
<p>As others have pointed out, I fail to understand why Hawkette feels compelled to start thread after thread on the same topic. Apparently she simply cannot believe that there are many people who do not want to turn the Ivy League into the Big 10.</p>