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The Lesser Five do not incur the envy of anyone I've known in my life. There are plenty of people who wish they went to HYP and MIT or Stanford (if only because they feel their resume is not impressive enough based on their own accomplishments instead of relying on a namebrand like a crutch). There is no namebrand value to the Lesser Five however. People don't look at a resume with the University of Pennsylvania or Brown University on it and think it is special... many, many people have never heard of these schools (and they are the same people who would be impressed if you could put "Ivy League" on your resume, which you can not). People who know that U of Penn and Brown are good schools are equally impressed by the likes of Rice, Duke, Berkeley, Chicago, Michigan, UVa, UNC, etc.
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<p>That's the stupidest I've ever heard. UPenn or Brown doesn't look impressive on a resume? How about the fact that the Ivy League, the ENTIRE Ivy League is disproportionally represented in business recruiting and on Wall Street? None of the Ivies besides HYP have name brand value? You've heard of them...everybody on this forum have heard of them (the Ivy League forums have by far more posts than any other college forum). And how about the 80,000 people that apply to Dartmouth, Columbia, Cornell, UPenn, and Brown every year? Why is it that all of the Ivies have huge applicant pools, even small schools like Dartmouth that only have a total of 4,000 undergraduates (other schools that are that small get well under 10,000 apps, Dartmouth for example got 13,000 applications last year, some of the others even more). That isn't to say that I think all non-Ivy schools are bad. Far from it. Matter of fact, the only person here that I see knocking on schools is YOU.</p>
<p>Xanatos, all the points you just made could be as easily applied to Duke, Rice, Berkeley, Uva, UNC, Michigan, and any number of other schools. These schools are all disproportionately representing in business recruiting and on Wall Street as well.</p>
<p>No one is knocking on the Lesser Five. They are great schools! It's just unrealistic to think they are greater than the other schools in the near-HYP category. Sure, Dartmouth looks impressive to me on a resume. So does Duke! No one is saying that the Lesser Five are not as impressive as other top schools (non-HYP).</p>
<p>That is to say, you don't try to demean their schools when it's to your benefit.
Of course it doesn't come up.</p>
<p>Me, UMich
2 children undergrad in two different Ivies because they had different interests.</p>
<p>Do you think a "dookie" (?) is aware of the following schools because:</p>
<p>Duke because of its pre-med or basketball?
Michigan because of its engineering or Football, fab 5, or undergrad?
Stanford, because of its academics, or because it plays sports on national TV?
UVA, because of its rising sports prowess in the ACC on national TV, or its great undergrad?
Berkeley, because of 60's rad, football, Cali rep, or its phenomenal undergrad?</p>
<p>On the other hand, if they know of Brown its not because they are an athletic powerhouse.
Dartmouth would remain unknown completely if it required national sports coverage to be known.
Columbia does not rule in the NCAA tournament.</p>
<p>If they know of them, it's because they are highly selective schools that only accept the top students in the country.
They know them as academic powerhouses, not by fans with multi-colored faces with their foam-rubber index finger waving in the air on saturday afternoon.</p>
<p>In the end, all students will be judged by their own accomplishments. Although, it will be considered according to how they competed and with who.</p>
<p>I LOVE UVA, I'm a little sad to hear you went there.</p>
<p>Woodwork, why do you say over and over again that I am demeaning other schools? Lesser Five are only "lesser" in namebrand value compared to HYP... I'm fully capable of admitting that UM, UVa, Rice, and Duke are "lesser" in namebrand cache than HYP as well. Do you think I'm demeaning my own alma mater (UVa) and my favorite school (Rice)? </p>
<p>Brown is known mostly for having optional grades, by the way. All the schools you mention are known for their academic merits, not those other reasons you give... I really doubt that anyone hears Stanford and says "oh that's the school that plays sports on TV". You're only saying that precisely because the Lesser Five can't field teams on TV. The lack of sports doesn't make them better places... it's really a strange way of looking at the world if that's how you feel.</p>
<p>In your world, Stanford would be better off by destroying its football stadium? Just so that no one will see their team play, like the Ivies?</p>
<p>Woodwork, are you sure you are of an age to have children? You think that Stanford people are jealous of Cornell people because they did NOT make a bowl game... that's just really bizarre.</p>
<p>How about Old Dominion University? They've made less bowl games than Yale. By your logic, and you have to admit this, ODU is a better school than Yale.</p>
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Xanatos, all the points you just made could be as easily applied to Duke, Rice, Berkeley, Uva, UNC, Michigan, and any number of other schools.
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<p>Funny...almost like I said that I thought there were plenty of good schools outside of the Ivy League.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, 20 years ago, 14 percent of executives at top companies were Ivy grads. Even today, with increased competition, that number is at around 5 percent. The Ivies still have a higher representation than other schools in big business and the stock market. That's just the way it is.</p>
<p>I'm getting really sick of listening to people talk about how great HYP is and then badmouth the rest of the Ivy League. Guess what? Harvard undergrad isn't that great. There's huge classes, professors don't give a damn about their undergrads, and the school allocates the majority of its resources to its graduate programs. All this not to mention the rampant grade-inflation. People talk about how great it is then claim that Dartmouth, which is a much better undergraduate experience, is overrated because their cousin from down the street hasn't heard of them. The Ivy League is the Ivy League for a reason, sports conference notwithstanding. People talk about the schools for a reason, they fall in love with the schools for a reason, and they apply there in droves for a reason. Stop trying to knock on the Ivy League just because you need an ego boost.</p>
<p>Xanatos, what percentage come from Rice, Duke, UVa, Berkeley etc.? Surely, you know that percentage as well?</p>
<p>I'm NOT KNOCKING THE IVY LEAGUE. I'm merely stated the widely recognized fact that the five schools in the Ivy League not named Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, do not have a namebrand value. You say this gives me an "ego boost" when you are here to stroke your own ego and convince yourself that Dartmouth is as good as HYP or somehow better than Duke. People fall in love with UVa, Duke, and Rice. A lot more people apply to Berkeley than any of the Ivies. People fall in love with all of these schools.</p>
<p>Everything you have said about the Lesser Five can be applied to Rice, Duke, and UVa. Are you trying to say that this is not true?</p>
<p>Mensa - Cornell was founded in 1865. It is the 78th oldest school and much younger than other public schools like UVa and UNC. In contrast, the College of William and Mary is the second-oldest to Harvard. Age really doesn't create much but a hefty endowment. And Rice, for example, has a bigger endowment per student than any of the Lesser Five. Would you rather have the long tradition of poor alumni that Brown has or the relatively short tradition filled with rich alumni that Rice has?</p>
<p>This is a silly argument, though - 1 or 2 career adm. people were too intensely obsessed with their admission rates; the students couldn't care less.</p>
<p>You may want to check this out to see how the colleges are viewed in one of the most important markets of all, the market of those who actually pick what they think is the better school and then attend it.</p>
<p>The revealed preference rankings
The Ivies occupy 8 of the top 16 spots.
UVA is a very respectable #20 (beeze)</p>
<p>I'm sure these students also had parents who work in the industries their children will be employed in and advised them accordingly.</p>
<p>Facts are so stubborn.........don't you think.
Somehow differnt than frustrated opinions</p>
<p>Facts are stubburn.. I haven't seen you comment on this yet. Do you feel that Cornell and Brown are jealous of Rice and its tradition of putting out relatively rich and generous alumni? Or do you think Rice is jealous of Brown and its relatively poor alumni?</p>
<p>Comments welcome, Woodwork. How can Brown, so much older and in the northeast, manage only an endowment payout of $7,000 when Rice is all the way up there with HYPMS at $32,000? Who do you think is really envious of whom?</p>
<p>(I admit that I used your link to show that people choose Rice over Duke more often than Duke over Rice. But do high school students really know everything yet? In the Lesser Five, they aren't following the money to the extent they may think they are.)</p>
<p>What is your point?
I plead ignorane. Somehow I suppose I feel happy for those Rice students in 1999, but I don't really know why. I hope they spent it well. Rice is a great school as I have argued in other threads. Does that make Rice somehow superior to MIT and Stanford?
I don't know.</p>
<p>Ok.
So, any comment on the preference rankings which seem to be pretty straight forward?</p>
<p>I suppose their parents and GC's are also ignorant of all this and that in the end you are the only one who really knows...........you and all your industry contacts I mean.</p>
<p>I already commented. Did you read my post above?</p>
<p>And you don't see the irony that many here, including yourself, think Lesser Five alumni are more successful than Rice and Duke alumni? If they are so successful, why don't Cornell, Brown, and Penn have even a fraction of the endowment per student that Rice, Princeton, Harvard, and Stanford enjoy?</p>
<p>No, I don't think it makes Rice superior to MIT and Stanford. They pay out $26,000 each year per student, which is roughly equal to Rice. That's not nearly as significant as the difference when compared to Brown, Cornell, and Penn (at a miniscule $7,000).</p>
<p>I'm the only one who knows that Rice and HYPMS have more money than everyone else? That's strange. I hope no one visits that link then, others might find out! We can't have that, can we? Let's keep the secret of the $$$$$ all to ourselves.</p>
<p>EDIT:
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All hail the mighty Breeze
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<p>I think we all knew this was coming eventually. Thank you... consider the thesis of your thread squashed. ;)</p>
<p>None of this is anything against the Lesser Five... they're fine schools, too. Just not HYPMS.</p>