Ivy League Admissions Difficulty is Exaggerated

Applying to College
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<p>Consider this about the tougher schools to get admitted to. I'm pulling this from collegeboard.com, Harvard's incoming class profile for the class of 2011:</p>

<p>Percent applicants admitted 9% (1,686)</p>

<p>95% Graduated in top 10% of class</p>

<p>Middle 50% scores:</p>

<p>Critical Reading 690-800
Mathematics 700-790
Writing 690-780</p>

<p>Let's just analyze this for a minute. Critical reading says that 25% of admits scored below 690 on reading, likewise 700 for mathematics and writing. This means that there ARE people out there who do get in with lower scores.</p>

<p>Some people have said that most of these schools look to fill their classes with 30-40% of "academic" type people. Consider that 25 percent of Harvard's class scored an 800 on critical reading and at 790 or higher for math. Think about how many people are applying to the school with these credentials. Do you think you'd stand a better shot with the very high scores, or say to be like the rest of the pack at Harvard, that is, from looking at the raw numbers 2200+ with good GPA, recs, EC's etc. Something tells me there are a lot of rejects who score 2350+ because they only fill less than 25 percent of the class.</p>

<p>Talk to most people at Harvard. They'll tell you that they're rather suprised they got in because they had a 2200, but good other supporting "well roundedness". Harvard also competes at the Division I level in all sports, along with the rest of the Ivy League. A place like MIT is not looking at EC's or sports as much as these other places. The Ivies have to take enough lower scoring athletes, by comparison to stay somewhat competitive in their sports.</p>

<p>So you're wondering if getting into one of these schools is exaggerated. I'll tell you that it just depends on who you are. If you have a 2300 and have been a JV athlete without very much leadership experience, then you probably stand less of a chance than the 2100 athlete who's been touted since his/her junior year by the school. I'll tell you the Princeton coach was calling me at the end of my junior year and my best SAT was a 1860 back then, and I ended up getting in w/ a 2050, but chose to come to USNA instead. Take into consideration people who were admitted vs. who they finally took as well. The scores for acceptance are much higher than the student body that's actually there. The scores you see on collegeboard.com were people who were admitted, not actually enrolled.</p>

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<p>It's good to have a math student from Stanford joining in the thread. </p>

<p>P.S. Who cares if a college is in the Ivy League? ;) The Pac 10 has some good colleges too.</p>

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<p>But Sly Si...he never stated exact chances...I was pretty sure he clearly meant the average chances of top students.</p>

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<p>Congrats on going to the United States Naval Academy. I commend you and your service to our nation.</p>

<p>I am glad that many of the IvyLeague and super elites select kids from the ranks of hard working and strong stats, but not necessarily perfect SAT's.</p>

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<p>Among the high scorers with good ECs, like myself, it really is a "crap-shoot" (words used by the regional admissions women that admitted me).</p>

<p>And by "crap-shoot", I mean the essay will make or break you.</p>

<p>Also, keep in mind that athletics and legacies need to be admitted too...schools don't run for free.</p>

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<p>"And by "crap-shoot", I mean the essay will make or break you."</p>

<p>Actually, what makes it a crap-shoot is that you can't know what will make or break you. It might be your essay, or the fact that you're from Idaho, or that the adcom who reads your application loves/hates your main EC.</p>

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<p>MLEVINE: True, though I think he does state exact chances in the other thread. In any case, his result is being interpreted as "if you have these stats, you're virtually guaranteed admission to at least one school". My point is to show that (a) this is not true, and (b) the math behind it is incorrect.</p>

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<p>"what makes it a crap-shoot is that you can't know what will make or break you"</p>

<p>It's fairly obvious if you fit into my general category or not...</p>

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<p>
[quote]

P.S. Who cares if a college is in the Ivy League? The Pac 10 has some good colleges too.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Psh, Pac 10 is sooo overrated.</p>

<p>Oh, are we not talking about football? Sorry :-P</p>

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<p>So living in Idaho WILL help in the Ivy League admissions process?</p>

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<p>Read these arguments and they are very positive....however, I have been told by Yale admissions people they can fill their freshman class 9 times over with persons having those scores and grades. Luckily, I am one of them, but I am still not confident I will get into Yale..as a result I applied Georgetown early and will just wait and see what happens with Yale on regular decision. Although, now I am hearing Georgetown has a 30% increase in early admission applications due to Harvard's elimination of early decision apps. Comments anyone?</p>

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<p>"So living in Idaho WILL help in the Ivy League admissions process?"</p>

<p>Well, it won't overcome significant lacks in your stats, but it probably will advantage you against a similar student from a metropolitan area in the Northeast.</p>

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<p>I guess I don't see the point to this discussion. We all know that amazing kids have a much better shot at IVY. That is a given. We also know that even with an ivy, a hook can get you in. This is a true story from a mom that you kids trying so hard to get into the tough schools need to hear:</p>

<p>One Vandie grad close to the family stated that he could have gotten the same job and same pay if he had gone to an is school. Has spent years repaying 200,000.00 and wishes he had used that for a grad degree.</p>

<p>Harvard grad has been out fo 4 years and is so in debt that he rarely eats out and even though he loves being able to say he went there, wished he had not spent so much money and has the same job as a state school grad.</p>

<p>There are many very gifted kids that go to these schools and have a great career. But don't think that going there is an automatic sucess story. It really is more about your ability to fit in and less about if you are smarter than everyone else. If your dream is ivy, great. But I agree with the others that say that most do not have 2350 SAT. I would love to hear from some of the kids that are scoring 1850 and have 3.75 GPA. These are the kids that need some advice and encouragement. The kids on this site seem to be superkids and that is simply not what most of us see on the average day.</p>

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<p>I havent been reading much of this lately anymore... but one of you said "Yale can fill its class 9 times over with people of these stats"</p>

<p>I've heard this line too. BUT BUT BUT, the admissions officers wasnt referring to ppl with stats that I've outlined. In the United States last year, only 1500 people scored 2350 and above. Yale's accepts upwards of 1600-1700 students a year. That would mean roughly 15,000 students had 2350's, 3.8+Gpa's, and 700+'s on their SAT 2's? Not possible. Not according to collegeboard (who administers these tests)</p>

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<p>^truazn, what about superscoring?</p>

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<p>
[quote]

In the United States last year, only 1500 people scored 2350 and above.

[/quote]
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<p>So, people (generally) attend high school for four years, and they often take the SAT two different years; i.e, junior and senior year. Some take it earlier and stick with that score, etc. Also, it does fail to take superscoring into consideration, as 99cents mentioned.</p>

<p>And, in any case, I'd have to think the adcoms were talking about filling their class 9 times over with people they consider to have equivalent stats. So it doesn't matter that you separate certain SAT scores into a 'separate class' if the adcoms doesn't.</p>

<p>And even if you do, having a better chance doesn't mean anything, because bottom line, it's about a lot more than test scores.</p>

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<p>Biscuit1013,</p>

<p>Your points are well-taken. IMHO, success has often little to do with where one goes to school and, more to do, with one's drive, passion and ability to make best use of available resources. It does, also, include a bit of luck. </p>

<p>The main point of this tread has been to try to help alleviate the sometimes misplaced anxiety and the occasional hopelessness felt by some of the very high achieving students among us. Many are often too fixated, lemming-like, on an artificially small set of schools and they are flummoxed by the seeming randonmess of the admission process at this handful of schools.</p>

<p>As to your point about the kids that are scoring 1850 and have 3.75 GPA needing advice and encouragement. These are very good students for whom there are myriad options for getting a truly excellent education, across a wide range of schools in the US -public and private, large and small. They too should not be filled with dread. </p>

<p>As an example, there are over 275 Phi Beta Kappa (PBK) chapters at colleges and universities in the US. Phi Beta Kappa is the oldest and most prestigious academic honor society in the country. Only the top 8-10% of all colleges in the US are granted PBK chapters. A college or university is awarded a chapter soley on the basis of the academic quality of its undergraduate program in the arts and sciences. So right off the bat, you got at least a pool of 275+ high quality schools with which to work. The students to whom you allude would have a great shot at getting into the majority of them.</p>

<p>If we drill down and get specific about a few of these schools that are not top-of-mind, one can see that there are many, many that offer outstanding programs in the arts and sciences all across the US: Trinity University in San Antonio, TX; Lawrence University (with its music conservatory) and Beloit College in WI; Kalamazoo and Albion Colleges in MI; The College of Wooster and Miami Univeristy in OH; University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, WA; Wofford College in SC; Fordham University and the University of Rochester in NY; University of Santa Clara, the University of the Pacific and Occidental College in CA; St. Olaf and Morris Colleges in MN; Knox and Lake Forest Colleges in IL; St. Mary's and Goucher Colleges in MD: Wheaton College in MA; DePauw, Hanover and Earlham Colleges in IN; Rhodes College and the University of the South (Sewanee) in TN: Franklin & Marshall, Washington & Jefferson, Muhlenburg, Allegheny, Ursinus and Juniata Colleges in PA; the Honors Programs at many state universities including Georgia, Montana and Missouri. Many of these schools have beautiful campuses, outstanding facilities, faculties with advanced degrees from the top universities in the land, dedicated to teaching and mentoring undergraduate students and they offer wonderful financial aid packages. Simply pick up the Fiske Guide and read about the resplendent choices available. We have a near embarrassment of educational riches in this country from which to chose.</p>

<p>While we do suffer from poor college guidance in this country and, too often, we students are tyrannized by a joyless high school educational process focused soley on "getting into college" and not on cultivating a love for learning, and yes our parents are sometimes overly concerned with themselves and their "social standing" relative to where we go to college, and yes we have college ranking systems (e.g. US News & World Report) that are inane but what we don't, most assuredly, lack in this country are quality educational institutions. What we do, unfortunately, lack is imagination.</p>

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<p>Well, it won't overcome significant lacks in your stats, but it probably will advantage you against a similar student from a metropolitan area in the Northeast.>>></p>

<p>Can anyone cite any study or other objective source to confirm this statement? When I checked the states of origin of entering freshmen at Yale, I saw that even when corrected for population density the Northeast was much more heavily represented. </p>

<p>I know that all the schools like to say that they get students from all over the country, preferably all 50 states, but after they have admitted one student from Idaho what benefit does the college have in admitting a second one?</p>

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<p>Balletgirl, one thing this thread has absolutely right is that those kids with high grades, high test scores and taking rigorous classes are almost certainly going to get into a selective school. All ivies? All the most selective, most desired schools? Maybe not. But most likely an excellent schools with like kids their peer. The problem is that even a 99% chance means that a decent number will not get into schools of their choice. Not a tragedy, but I can tell you that in my particular situation a 90-99% chance strikes fear in the heart of a parent when that is the chance of being alive in so many years--a statistic over which many felt I should be overjoyed when there were (and are) so many with lesser chances. Clearly, to compare that with college acceptance is using a sledgehammer to chase a gnat, however, I just want to point out that a 99% rate when there are 6000-7000 individuals in the pool means that 60-70 of those fully accepting to be in that wonderful 99% are not.</p>

<p>And you are absolutely right about all of these great choices available. However, for those of us who do not have the resources to pay for those schools with those high sticker prices and with kids who have more mixed resumes so that sizeable merit awards are unlikely, the choices are more limited. Many of those wonderful school you listed--I commend your choice, it looks like our list for our son, pretty much REQUIRE visits for admissions. And much show of interest. Expensive to do so. We just returned from a visit from one of those schools in hopes of a $15K scholarship that our son is in line for. The price tag for the visit was $1500, and that is taking indirect flights (hours of travel) and staying at a fleabag. To do this for a number of schools adds up quickly, and if the sticker price of the school is $45K plus with travel, that $15K really doesn't come to much. The state university honors program that our son likes has an OOS price tage of close to $35K just this year. The alternatives are not as plenty for those who want some of these riches without the money in hand. And we are talking about a family who is fortunate enough NOT to be eligible for aid. </p>

<p>For top students, it is not as important to visit or interview at the most selective schools, it seems. HPY does not seem to care at all as I have known a number of kids (with counselors and parents in the know) who did not bother, having visited perhaps in earlier years and saved their attention for the smaller schools that count every contact point. Large state U's in general do not care about contact, interviews or visits either.</p>

<p>I don't know who you know in terms of parents, but I can tell you that even living in an area where college panic is at its worst, most parents I know really want the best fit, and happiest situation for their kids. It's when they think they will not get this, that they are concerned. Not all parents are fixated on prestige. However, most parents do have to consider other kids' and family members' needs as well, and the cost of some of these excellent schools has become an issue. They do have to wonder if a degree from Goucher at its sticker price is worth the financial sacrifice, whereas they won't flinch as much at the price of THe very most well known schools-HPYS. There is a value to product recognition. And the 30K+ pricetag of OOS public colleges is causing hesitation as it well should.</p>

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<p>Vicariousparent, it is difficult to gauge the value of coming from Idaho. THere are schools that will outright say that geographics do have some part in decision making (the Brown rep has said so numerous times publicly). But how much is the question. And there are times when coming from far away can be a DISADVANTAGE since there may be question of the likelihood of such a candidate actually coming. Certain local schools get as much as 90% of their students locally and know that though some students from farther away will apply, their yield will far, far higher with the local crowd. </p>

<p>However there are certain schools where the geographics can be very important. At CMU in Pittsburgh, the admissions dean admits that there is a "Pennsylvania" stack and elsewhere stack. THe kids who get into CMU from an hour radius tend to be top kids, because so many top kids from that area do apply there and will go there if accepted even over more selective choices. And CMU has no intention of becoming a second Pitt. Getting more national representation is important for them to keep their rep as a national school. I have seen kids turned down from NYU in the greater NYC area, when like kids from the midwest where I used to live get in with merit money! I have seen the same with BC, BU and a number of other schools.</p>