<p>My son is an engineering major at an ivy league college and has never gotten below an A in high school, got 5's on all of his APs and 800s on MathIIC and Chemistry SATIIs. His freshman first semester grades were 2 B+'s and 2 C's (soph level calculus and chemistry). He is in shock and very depressed about his first grades. This was his first time living away from home and while he did not ever seem homesick and absolutly loves his school and new friends I think that juggling all of the freedom and independance took it's toll. My biggest issue is that he really thought that he was doing much better than C's in these classes - how could he have been so out of touch with reality? We are so proud of all that he has been able to take on and accomplish this year. In talking with him, however, I don't know how to balance commiseration vs encouragement vs discipline. Do I let him attempt the necessary lifestyle/study habit changes he know he must implement and then come down hard on him by mid 2nd semester if grades don't improve - or do I play the guilt card now and tell him that things must go better or it is State U next year hoping that will shock him into doing what has to be done to get the grades he wants? (we are paying 40 K/yr that could be well used elsewhere in our life if he is not going to buckle down or just plain can't hack it). He is truly a great kid, no bad habits (honest) but he is very shy and proud about asking for academic help and I don't know if he is in over his head given the competition at his school. I did not expect A's at this college by any means, but I did think that straight B's were not unreasonable. I don't want the grades to be everything - but this is the first step to graduate school, should he stick it out or go to a school where he can post better stats? Has anyone else had to face this? Do things generally get better after the first semester?</p>
<p>I am a third-year student at Caltech and am on the admissions committee as well as the academic standards committee which decides what to do with students whose academic performance is subpar, so I've had some contact with the issues you are encountering, though obviously not from a parent's perspective (but kind of from the student and the administrative end).</p>
<p>It seems like your son loves the social life, and that is probably part of the problem. A fun social scene can be an extreme distraction, especially for a student living for the first time with others whom he finds truly interesting and like-minded (trust me, I've been there). It feels like this isn't a question of ability but priorities. I think the right answer is a mix of the options you are considering. I'd like my parents, if I were in this situation, to be understanding about what happened and not needlessly harsh. However, the message won't sink in without concrete consequences described, so I would matter-of-factly state that if next term's GPA is not above x then he'd be better off academically at a state school and you wouldn't be paying so much for an education he's not making proper use of. It works best if this isn't a punishment or a guilt trip or a spiteful kind of declaration, but just a plain statement of fact that C's, even at an Ivy, aren't worth that money.</p>
<p>I think this would knock pretty much anyone into compliance, or at least a best effort at it, including the terrible recourse of seeking help if that's what it takes. Now, if it turns out he actually can't hack it (I gather a mother can tell whether her son is earnestly doing his very best) -- take advantage that he doesn't go to my school! There are plenty of other majors out there that honestly offer you just as good a shot at those lucrative post-Ivy jobs (with a lot of analytical work, e.g. in finance or investment) without all the engineering-major pain to get the engineering degree. In reality, it would really be a bad outcome for him to end up at State U., so in the end if it's a question of ability, the situation can be managed by putting him into a course of study which he can easily manage. (My best guess from the information you give is that this situation will not arise.)</p>
<p>Take it easy on him. My freshman year at Yale, my three suitemates and I had terrible grades. I don't think any of us averaged a 3.0. We all had had great grades in high school. My high school was one of the most academically competitive in the state, so it's not like I received top grades in an easy environment. I had also taken classes at a top ranked LAC my senior year and received As.</p>
<p>Anyway, when I went to Yale, I was totally unprepared for how difficult it was. My notetaking skills were poor and even though I had had to write lengthy analytical papers in high school, Yale simply required me to take things to a different level. Especially first semester, I was shy in discussion sections and, as I later figured out, the difference between a B+ and an A- can be participation in discussion section.</p>
<p>On top of that, I was happier socially than I had ever been in my life. I stayed up until all hours with the most fascinating, wonderful people I had ever met. I found an extracurricular that I adored and devoted lots of time to it. I soaked in all the marvelous stuff on campus, going to guest lectures, plays, football games. A "good kid" in high school, I started partying (nothing too wild, but it was a change in lifestyle). </p>
<p>Sophomore year, I figured out how to take notes, write papers, study for tests, and balance the academic with the extracurricular and social. I received no lower than an A- from my sophomore year until graduation. My roommates and I all went to US News top 25 grad schools in our respective fields despite the damage freshman year did to our GPAs. No question, I would have gotten into a better school had my GPA not been affected by freshman year, but that ultimately didn't make a difference in my life. Freshman year GPA probably mattered even less in my roommates' grad school apps; they all took time off between college and grad school doing interesting things (I did not).</p>
<p>ANYWAY, if your son is loving college, is concerned about his grades, and really doesn't have any bad habits, I bet his academic performance will improve. College is a major transition. The guilt card and threats of sending to State U may so unnerve and upset him that it will be more difficult for him to get his act together. That being said, you should strongly encourage/force him to get academic tutoring, take advantage of his professors' office hours, and work with the grad students TAing courses, if applicable.</p>
<p>My parents held their tongues about my grades and helped me get tutoring second semester. We now joke about how bad my grades were as I still do with my three old roommates. And my roommates and I all agree that we wouldn't have changed any of it because we learned so much and had the time of our lives.</p>
<p>From a student's perspective, if he's "in shock and depressed", I think he knows he didn't accomplish his expectations for himself. If he's already beating himself up over his grades, you adding to it as the parent won't help him any. I would think he would take it upon himself to step it up next semester, assuming he's serious about school, which he seems to be from what you said.</p>
<p>First semester is often rough. The average freshmen GPA at my school is around 2.9, which is obviously a big shock for people who come in with their 4.0 high school grades (90% of the school). Some schools enjoy handing out C's, and some programs at schools enjoy handing out C's. Now he knows what's expected of him by the professors, and he should be able to make the necessary corrections. A bad first semester will not keep him out of a top grad school. If he "doesn't have any bad habits" and his first priority is his education, he should be a successful student, and you should see an improvement next semester.</p>
<p>just my view =)</p>
<p>I guess I seem unusually harsh. I still think there need to be real consequences hanging around somewhere, but I did not give enough attention to the fact that he is already "in shock and depressed". Perhaps the State U. card should be saved for if he does not accept the idea of tutoring/help, as Addict suggests.</p>
<p>I can't think of anything worse than a parent coming down like a ton of bricks on a kid who is disappointed with his first-semester freshman year grades. He is most certainly not the first kid to get humbled by an advanced Calc or college chemistry class -- in fact, those are very common "humbling" classes. I'm sure that he is probably putting plenty of pressure on himself without threats of State U.</p>
<p>I think a much more productive approach would be a discussion of available resources -- study skills seminars, etc. Also, I think it's important for a student to know that they don't have to be married to a major he was considering before college if that is not his aptitude.</p>
<p>And, he may not do any better at State U (or may even do worse).</p>
<p>Coming down hard on your son, with lots of ultimatums, etc. can have the excact opposite effect that you desire. Right now, he is upset with himself, as it should be. If you become or threat to become punitive, this will start to put him on the defensive, and now, instead of feeling guilty and angry at HIMSELF, he will direct that anger at you in defense. That will effectively take him AWAY from the mode of self exploration and self improvement. So, I concur with others that you shold empathize with his feelings of disappointment and upset, and strictly confine your input to problem solving for the future, eg. " a discussion of available resources -- study skills seminars, etc". Also, realize, that college is a time for all kinds of personal growth: your son my be breaking out of his shell socially, and that is very valuable too. Now, he just needs to figure out the balance, and given his reaction to these grades, it is likely that he will be motivated to do so. Your encouragement at this time will probably be remembered by him as a tremendous sign of your positive relationship...and that is something he will carry with him as a source of great inner strength as he deals with these academic challenges.</p>
<p>interesteddad puts it very well, about not marrying a major before one knows what is out there and what one is best at. I've seen many times how a failure to realize this can cause a fair bit of conflict in families -- when nobody seems to see that dropping into a less intense major/program/schedule isn't the end of the world or some shameful calamity. Some flexibility about goals can turn a bad performance into a wonderful redirection that focuses a student on what he's really "meant to do"</p>
<p>Frandg, encouragement and support are your jobs right now. Give him the space to start to take responsibility for his own actions.</p>
<p>I wonder if it's possible you've been mislead by all those threads on here about inflation grading. A "B" or "C" at my S's Ivy was considered average. We had to come to grips with the idea that he was no longer cream of the crop -- that he was in class with kids as bright or brighter than he. He graduated with a low 3.something, which was a bit above average -- which means more than half his classmates did worse! But he, too, had to get used to the idea of no longer being a straight-A student. </p>
<p>His grades didn't fall quite as quickly as your S's -- it was more gradual, as his classes got harder and his social life expanded. He did have to pare down some activities -- his own decision -- but did not desire to spend his entire college career in the library or his room. </p>
<p>Part of his education at school was learning to juggle time and set priorities. He was dismayed enough at his grades that we didn't have to say a lot. I think it's more effective when the student comes to certain conclusions on his own.</p>
<p>He is now graduated and happily and gainfully employed in his major.</p>
<p>There are lots of reasons why grades might suffer besides social life. Someone mentioned poor academic fit. My own experience in college led me to the school's learning support services, which worked with me on my poor test-taking abilities.</p>
<p>I would not worry about threatening your S with State U unless it is clear that he is not bothering to study. The fact is, a lot of kids are mildly to terribly shocked at their first term grades. </p>
<p>Ivy league schools (and college in general) are a different cup of tea from high school. What got you by in high school may not work when you are in the same class with a room full of the top kids at their high schools. </p>
<p>You don't say which college your son is at, but some schools are known from grade inflation and others are known for the opposite. It could be that your son is at the latter.</p>
<p>I thought a C = average and a B = above average ? am I totally off base?</p>
<p>One more thought: I vaguely remember that recently Princeton and/or Harvard and Duke were attempting to respond to rampant grade inflation by tightening how grades are distributed. Back in the day, a C really represented average work, not poor work, and a high GPA meant something. Your son may be going to a school where they are trying to make an A truly represent outstanding work, a B represent good/above average work and Cs for average work.</p>
<p>frandg~</p>
<p>I am so sorry that this first semester seems to have been rough on your son grade-wise. It is one thing to hear about the first semester being a period of adjustment for a freshman and quite another to actually see the repercussions of that adjustment time. </p>
<p>If your son is already shocked and depressed by his academic performance, he is most likely a student who cares enough to figure this whole thing out without undue pressure or threat of pulling him out of the school that he loves. Like others have pointed out, I think your best role would be that of supporter and encouraging parent.</p>
<p>Do realize that your son is NOT alone. One of my son's best friends at Duke made 2 C's and 2 D's this semester and is on academic probation. I would guess that the vast majority of kids who start out like this finish in a much, much better position. It is part of the learning process in college.</p>
<p>I so hope that the second semester brings your son much success and helps to rebuild his confidence. I'm sure his grades will improve considerably. </p>
<p>Wishing him all the best, ~berurah</p>
<p>Remember, more than half the kids at whatever school your son goes to also had bunches of 800's and 5's...this is where the rubber meets the road. He may not see many A's for a while. It certainly won't help to introduce more anxiety into the picture at this point. Are you really ready to toss away all the effort that went into getting into the Ivy in the first place just because of mediocre grades the first semester? What makes you think he is not working hard?</p>
<p>Several of the more rigorous schools- Swarthmore and MIT come to mind, have first semester of freshman year pass-fail for this very reason. No matter how well your son did in HS, he is in the big league now and there are a million things to get used to- how to learn math in a lecture setting, how to know how you are doing when you only have 4 graded items in a semester, how to know what you don't understand- when you are accustomed to understanding everything. </p>
<p>Instead of threats, I would try to problem solve. What, in retrospect, might he have recognized about how things were not going well, that he didn't see the first time? What resources are there on his campus to help to review, anticipate test contents, etc. He may never have had to do anything like this before (ask for help that is)- what makes you sure he knows how to do it?</p>
<p>At the opening day for my first son's school (LAC) the president told parents to expect a drop off in grades by a full level for the first semester. When my son got a decidedly low grade in Calculus II (he was planning to be an English major and had no distribution requirements, he took the class because he found Calculus fun!) it was a learning opportunity for him. He learned to think about why he was taking the classes he was taking, why others (ie, math majors) might be taking the class, how to know if things weren't going well, what to do about it. His grades have been better since, and he is still brave enough to take an occasional class that he is 'just interested' in, knowing full well it might be very challenging for him. My #2 son is a freshman at an Ivy and he too found his math class a challenge, after a 5 on the AP Calc. exam and good math preparation. He has already figured out what he needs to do in the future- why it was hard for him, etc. </p>
<p>A poor grade is a great chance to learn- and a lousy reason to threaten.</p>
<p>id give him another semester-- the adjustment to college (and especially ivy level) work is a large one. I don't believe everything about grade inflation, just because a lot of kids get As, that doesnt mean that its easy to do so. I go to princeton, which is known for having grade inflation (which they are working on)- and while it is definately easyish to pull Bs , especially in humanities, the A is hard. And in science classes, in my experience, they curve to a B/B+, which means that a large percentage of the class will get a C. Just by junior and senior year you ahve learned what it takes to do the work. It is a whole other level from high school work-- the pace, whats expected of you, and the distractions.</p>
<p>So talk about where he can get help, but also let him adjust over another semester and see where he stands at the end of his freshman year</p>
<p>Ben, I'm glad to hear you are reconsidering your earlier advice.</p>
<p>Your own college (Caltech) recognizes that the beginning of college is a transition which requires some adjustment--it makes the first two terms pass-fail. This seems like a sensible arrangement to me.</p>
<p>I don't think you'd advise parents of a Caltech freshman to threaten to send him to a state school if he doesn't immediately pull his grades up after getting 2 B+'s and 2 C's in his first term. </p>
<p>I've been on grad school admission committees. Even where first-year grades are not pass-fail, we cut candidates a lot of slack for low first year grades (especially in the first semester) if they pulled them up later on.</p>
<p>A couple of C's in first year freshman classes gives a transcript "character." It shows admissions committees that the student attended a school that isn't afraid to give C's, that really challenges students. Those C's in freshman year will really make the higher grades he may get later on shine all the more brightly in contrast.</p>
<p>A trajectory that starts with C's and moves upwards show the admissions committee that the kid is resilient (something that's very important in research careers down the road, since even the most brilliant researchers have disappointing experimental results--theories don't always pan out!) </p>
<p>In the greater scheme of things, learning to deal with setbacks and disappointments like this is a great opportunity for personal growth.</p>
<p>If I were the parent here, I wouldn't start threatening. The kid is clearly concerned and distressed, and he's sharing that distress with his parents. That sounds to me like an opening for a constructive conversation. </p>
<p>I think one thing to talk about is the fact that lots of terrific students have this kind of problem. If parents can think back to their own time in school, I suspect most of us can think of some bumps in the road we ourselves had. </p>
<p>Empathy can help. Talking about what worked for you and what worked for others in a gentle, brainstorming, supportive way can help. Get him to open up about what sorts of strategies he's been considering to turn things around, what he sees as the resources available to him. It sounds like you are both on the same side--it's a good idea to keep it that way. </p>
<p>Different things work for different students. I think a lot of parents assume that students are best off going to the professor or TA or a tutor for help, but often working with peers in an informal study group can be far more effective and more empowering.</p>
<p>It sure sounds to me like this kid is really disappointed in himself and discouraged. I think he needs encouragement, not threats.</p>
<p>I agree with all the wise students and parents who recommend against "playing the guilt card" and coming down on him. In your question about the proper balance between commiseration/encouragement/discipline, I believe it should be 95% the first two and 5% the "discipline." </p>
<p>The key is what the content of that discipline should be. If it were my own son, I expect he, too, might be reluctant to avail himself of academic support resources. So, were I you, I would seek the "teachable moment" before he returns, commiserate and encourage out the wazoo; tell him you know (because you do know) that he, himself, is motivated to solve the problem and needs only support from you. But tell him that your "job" as a parent is still to sometimes set the ground rules about what that support will be. The ground rules I would set are these: he needs to share with you his interim grades next term as they come along (quizzes, tests etc.). If they are sub-par for his goals, he <em>must</em> then seek academic support. That is your requirement of him. It can be a type of his choosing - study groups, TA office hours, prof office hours, Academic Support center. But he must choose one or more and let you know what that choice is and demonstrate that he is following through.</p>
<p>If a move to another major (or another school) is relevant, that can come later - the former at his own behest, the latter if and only if you see an unwillingness or inability to thrive at his current school after another semester or two.</p>
<p>PS Some of these engineering kids (my S is one) do <em>not</em> like Chemistry. DS' grades at a top LAC were very good, but still his lowest was Chem - as with your S. I am guessing that your S got B+ in Physics as well as one other course. If he is one of the Chem-averse, he will not have to take that any more after next term. So that ability to choose future courses a <em>bit</em> more (because Eng. kids don't have nearly the flexibility that others do) could also help.</p>
<p>I agree that threats are not the answer here. Two possibilities come to mind. The first is that like many "serious" kids coming out of relatively unsocial high school experiences, your S may simply not have worked as hard as he needed to during his first college semester because he was finally in a setting where he had peers and could have fun with people he felt comfortable with. This ties in to the second and possibly more likely point. With really high SATs and AP scores, your son may not have expected college to be quite so difficult as it is; a 5 on the calculus or chem AP doesn't necessarily translate to success in a soph level calc or chem course. Some colleges that will officially give credit for AP courses with a 4 or 5 test score discourage students from using that credit in math or science precisely because the college courses are more challenging, and an AP course, no matter how well you do on the test, doesn't necessarily prepare you for the next level in a real college setting. So for this coming semester, I think the approach would be to seek out good advising (though possibly to late for schedule planning now), peer support, and contact with TAs and professor next semester. Discussing a switch to a state university seems punitive rather than constructuve at this point.</p>