<p>Again, thank you all very much. I am so touched that my post is receiving responses from a wide spectrum of knowledgeable readers. I will take all of your advice into consideration and as I observe my son's attitude and initiative over the next months I will apply it as needed (especially if, as you allude to Ben Golub, he doesnt follow through with his intention to change study habits. Btw do you know if GPAs are tied into the continuation of National Merit Scholarships?)
My husband has been handling the grade discussions with my son amazingly well and has been very realistic and encouraging to him. One thing that my husband contends, however, is that there is a select group of students who have old exams to study off of, and if you are not in with this in crowd you are destined to be behind. (he grumbles about this to me not in front of our son) Why does he say this? Because on our campus tour the Eng student guide told us that old tests are freely passed around on the Internet amongst friends. My son did get 2 old tests from the prof as study guides, and the most recent tests (the ones he took this year) are posted with solutions after grading has been complete (but only the most recent exams are posted currently, not past years exams). So, spn2200, what do you make of my husbands assertion that if you know the right people who can hook you up with all of the old exams you are one step ahead? And if it is true how do you meet these people? (Oh, and thanks for the tip about median grades I had already seen that in another thread and loved the link)
More and more, as I read these posts I remember that the reason that my son chose Cornell was because he knew that Cornell had the best Engineering School in the Ivys and he would be challenged (and ironically, that is what he loves the most about Cornell that, and the amazing caliber of students that he gets to interact with.) Before entering he also heard the musings that Cornell grades on a very tough scale but he was determined not to get a C. Oh well, my main hope is that he doesnt begin to settle for Cs without changing study habits and putting in the good effort. Since good grades always came so easy to him before with minimal study my hope is that he will learn a better work ethic in college. I want him to continue to have the pride in and desire for good grades without seeing him work for only a grade, and to know that we love him regardless. Ah, that delicate balance.
Jmmom and sac: Son decided to repeat the course because that is what a buddy of his (another C) heard from his advisor. Buddys advisor said that grad schools dont look that unfavorably upon repeats of Frosh courses. The two grades will be averaged. My husband (who agreed with originaloog and had advised son not to take AP credit in courses in his major) also encouraged repeating the course since he is concerned that ability to apply concepts was not fully grasped first time around.<br>
Thanks for the encouragement for all of us MolliebatMIT and Mr. B!!! Everyone in this forum is great!</p>
<p>this is Cornell for u in a nut shell</p>
<p>Having just finished meeting with two students who bombed my class last semester, let me see if the following advice is constructive.</p>
<p>Good students often don't know how to study for a difficult college class, especially in the technical subjects.</p>
<p>Many students in high school were so good that they got A's without trying, and to them a tough class was one where you worked hard and then got an A. Few will have had experience with situations where you work your buns off, try like crazy and still get a B-.</p>
<p>Kids need to find out first Why they did badly. Did they slack off or were their study habits incorrect? Were they careless or clueless? Many assume the first when it is really the second at work.</p>
<p>How to tell? One trick that many professors recommend is the following:</p>
<p>Get out the test where you did poorly (It helps if it's not multiple guess.) Photocopy it with the answers removed. Go to a quiet corner. Redo without notes in about half the time of the original test (Take about 30-40 minutes per hour). You should get nearly a perfect score the second time around. And I mean perfect. The graphs, the equations, the labels, the explanations should pretty much match what the teacher wants without ambiguity.</p>
<p>Since you've presumably seen the answers already, any questions that you were careless on will be a breeze the second time around. But here's the thing, there are often going to be problems that the student STILL can't do right even after seeing the answers. These will be the ones that are indicative of a lack of understanding that will require more work.</p>
<p>Remind the student: Effort doesn't count -- especially in math and science. Only correct answers do.</p>
<p>And yes, I wasn't a whiz kid as an undergrad and I used these techniques to improve. It made grad school a lot easier than undergrad.</p>
<p>frandg,</p>
<p>it was long ago but in the fraternity where I lived years 2 thru 4, the most utilized part of the frat's library were the files of previous tests. If I recall we had them going back for years...I never felt truly prepared till I reviewed them. Esp if the instructor was the same. I remember wrestling with the notion, is this ethical, is it giving me an unfair advantage over someone in a dorm without access? I guess I determined it was OK, if it's out there and helps you understand the material, go for it. </p>
<p>Perhaps today these exams might be on-line?</p>
<p>When I first read this thread this morning, I was going to suggest something along the lines of what Not Quite Old posted. When students do poorly on my exams (I teach at a CC), I always invite them to spend some time with me to go over the test. I tell them they need to go over the exam with a fine tooth comb - to figure out where they went wrong. I also like to see their notes. It is very rare that a student takes me up on this offer, BTW. </p>
<p>Fran, I am not sure how many tests the profs gave. Hopefully, it wasn't one of those "mid-terms and final only" deal. If there was an exam every 3-4 weeks, it might have been a good idea to go over each exam throughly as NQO suggested. But you did say, your S did not think he was doing so poorly. Maybe, the Final was problematic and was weighted heavily. I would suggest what others have already recommended, go over the Final Exam and all the other exams to determine the problem areas. Your son should come away from that exercise knowing what he should have done differently.</p>
<p>Tell him to hang in there. He's taken some difficult courses in a college that is not known to be easy. He's a trooper for taking two sophomore courses in his first semester of his freshman year.</p>
<p>Not quite old--such good advice, and the reason why kids should go to their professors to ask for help/insight! I went to talk to professors a few times when I was not doing well and they were always helpful and sympathetic and gave great advice. </p>
<p>frandg--my personal opinion is to tell your son that you want him to succeed where he is at, that you are proud of him, and to not let this get to him. Tell him that you believe in him and that you have no intention of pulling the plug and sending him to a state school, but that it is an option if HE thinks at some point it would be better for him to go that route, and that you would not consider that a failure on his part, if it came to that. Also, there is the option of taking a leave for a time if he continues to struggle, in order to to have the time to really figure out what is going on and whether or not returning is best, or pursuing another path.</p>
<p>I believe he will do better next semester. The transition from high school to a tough course of study in college can be a real shock. But he is very smart, and I have the feeling he will figure out what he needs to do with your encouragement. Good luck!</p>
<p>Want to add--my son was lucky. He got a C in physics on a midterm his first quarter at UChicago, and that was a real eye opener for him. Physics is what he is good and loves, and believe me, that motivated him to study harder and his grade in that class went up substantially after that!</p>
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it was long ago but in the fraternity where I lived years 2 thru 4, the most utilized part of the frat's library were the files of previous tests. If I recall we had them going back for years...I never felt truly prepared till I reviewed them. Esp if the instructor was the same. I remember wrestling with the notion, is this ethical, is it giving me an unfair advantage over someone in a dorm without access?
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<p>It was well known that some instructors were lazy and gave the exact same exam (they knew full well that students had copies of previous ones). Once in class, an instructor passed out the exams and asked if everyone had gotten one. A student replied "yeah, we had them last night".</p>
<p>I agree witht he advice to give him support and encouragement. Threats would be counterproductive. Transferring is an option you bring up when the kid is unhappy with the school. Since he is happy there, it would come out of the blue. And the top students at state schools are every bit as talented as those in the Ivies, and do it with much less support.</p>
<p>Two practical considerations. First, remind him that the academic counseling, study habit help, tutoring, and professor's office hours are much of what you are paying for in that expensive Ivy League school. It makes about as much sense to pay for it and not use it as it would to sleep on the street when you have a dorm room.</p>
<p>Second, go over the exams carefullly. If he really thought he did better than the grades reflected, in some cases he may be right. I had not a few instances in college where the grad student grading the exam simply got it wrong and marked me down for correct answers. If this has happened, he should be able to correct the grade. If his answers really were wrong, and he thought they were correct, then he does not know the material as well as he thought and he should discuss with his advisor, or the professors of the courses, or both, whether he should move on in the sequence or retake courses. It is fine to listen to peers, but, again, you are going to this top university for teaching and advice from the faculty. Use it.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I don't know precisely about the National Merit Scholarship, but I don't think there's a GPA cutoff -- if there was, they never told me about it.</p>
<p>My S is an engineering major at an out of state state school, and freshman year was an eye opener for him. He was a good student in HS, 4's on AP Bio and Physics exams and 1400 plus on his SAT's. First semester his GPA was 1.56, he failed honors chemistry because he didn't pass in all the labs (he thought he had, but the TA never got them). He got a few more grades he was very surprised at, and was very upset at his first semester grades. Second semester was a little better, he repeated Calc I and brought his grades up far enough to be off of academic probation. He took two freshman courses a a local university this summer and is now a sophomore.</p>
<p>At the end of his first semester he was too upset for us to be too hard with him. We did tell him that he would need to pay to repeat any courses he needed to take over the summer, advised him to talk to the professors of the courses he had problems with, and also asked him to seek out tutoring and other academic support. I don't think he ever talked to the professors.</p>
<p>He went back to school this semester with a goal of a 2.5 gpa for the year. Was again surprised with some of his grades, but seems to be little more aware of what is required. Got a D+ in his first major course, and is going back to find out if he needs to repeat it to continue in the sequence. He likes his major, and doesn't want to change, but I don't know how long this can continue. I can only pay for 4 years of school. We sent him back with encouragement, the same advise, etc. Have suggested that he take some time off if he doesn't meet his goal this year. What concerns me is that he doesn't seem to be learning from his mistakes. Am hoping that we all will look back on this wi****lly in ten or twenty years or so.</p>
<p>"He has decided to re-take the math class alon"</p>
<p>You can retake a class you made a C in?</p>
<p>I want to caution you regarding the "if you know the right people you can get access to more tools" thing. I believe there was a situation at UVA a couple years ago where they took away a bunch of previously granted diplomas after they found students had cheated on things. I'm not sure if it was past exams, it might have been copying parts of papers that other people had written. Just make sure you know the school policy on these things.</p>
<p>My school never gives back final exams, which I guess allows the professors to reuse them without worry, though some definitely write new ones every year.</p>
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Am hoping that we all will look back on this wi****lly in ten or twenty years or so.
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</p>
<p>Why was that word starred?</p>
<p>The letters in the middle are a commonly used, rude, acronym.</p>
<p>Frandg, it certainly helps to review old exams. It does help with content but I think more importantly it helps the student understand the types of questions that will be asked by the professor. Many professors will distribute previous year's exams to aid in studying. For those classes that do not have this, it is possible to come across unpublished exams from prior years. I do not agree with your husband's assertions. Yes it does help to have the old exams, but it does not mean that you will fall behind. If you ask a professor what types of questions they ask, they will usually tell you - this is the main benefit of the practice test. </p>
<p>If I did not have a previous exam I would never assume that I was out of the loop and would be behind someone else that did. It's not really a network of those with old exams, it really comes down to whether or not you have a friend that took the class before you did.</p>
<p>"Redo without notes in about half the time of the original test (Take about 30-40 minutes per hour). You should get nearly a perfect score the second time around. "</p>
<p>Here is my take on the old exams/new exams issue...</p>
<p>As the assessment process becomes less rote oriented and more synthetic (as it will at higher levels in math and science), there is the inevitable 'rude shock' moment. I had never had anything but an A on any math or science class in HS and I got a 17 on my first chem exam in college. The class average was 21- I kid you not. Every single exam in chem and physics was incrementally easier- there were no 'AHA' moments until well into the school year- when I came to the realization that I was never going to see a problem on an exam that looked like anything I had done in problem sets, or much like anything on previous exams. In my freshman year I would never have been able to sit down, even with the answers in front of me, and write a perfect exam. It was gradual, it took substantial time and effort and courage, honestly, to flog away. It helped that many of the other people around me who also had always had A's were struggling, too.</p>
<p>Fortunately, there was pass fail. Fortunately, I did not come in expecting to be anywhere's near the top of the class. I knew I had inferior preparation to all those Bronx Sci/Stuy/Andover kids. Fortunately, I didn't listen to myself when I started to think the school made a mistake in admitting me. I tried to come up with more 'specific' explanations for why I was struggling, rather than "I can never make it here."</p>
<p>I came to appreciate that the professor (his name was Daniel Kemp, no one in that class could ever forget him) who gave us the impossible first chemistry exam had done several things. He had intentionally given us an exam for which we could never have prepared(one student in the class of 400 or so had a grade higher than 70). He had vaulted us out of any residual complacency. He had set the bar for what his expectations were, and the expectations of the university as a whole. He had reminded us that what is worthwhile is often tough! He helped us realize that the process of being educated is not only measured by one's grades. </p>
<p>At some level of rigor in an academic program it just might be that even a very bright student working hard might not get an A or even a B+! Prepping with old exams, working in groups, increasing the effort of reviewing, etc all help. I think there need to be realistic expectations. Sometimes just 'working harder' or even 'working smarter' is not all it takes. </p>
<p>I have respect for schools and professors who put the mission of education ahead of the smug assumption that 'of course all the kids at our school are bright and deserve great grades.' Lest we think this is only an issue in math/science classes I would add the following. My son has an English professor whom many kids are loathe to take a second class with- her grading is notoriously brutal and her standards exacting. My son keeps going back for more. He gets decent grades with her, and he has internalized her standards and wants to measure up to them. He knows she can teach him more. </p>
<p>All these kids have been graded since the womb. If this is the first time they have to be resilient, it will not be the last!</p>
<p>I agree with what NQO posted if profs do give exams back. If they don't, a student who did not do well should ask to see his/her exam and hand it back to the prof later. It is very useful to know if one had made a careless error or had misinterpreted a question or had had no clue as to how to solve the problem. </p>
<p>My S has had experience with all three. He has walked out of some exams thinking he'd done a far better job than he actually did.<br>
In one case, he thought the problem was insoluble. It turned out he'd misinterpreted the data, so he could not find a theory to fit it. Fortunately, the prof, realizing that my S knew the stuff but had made an initial error, was kind enough to allow him to make up for this defect by working on more problems. </p>
<p>I like the idea of study groups; not relying on classmates for rumors, but helping one another review the materials, go over problem sets, and so forth. This is much encouraged in several of my S's classes.</p>
<p>I also think it is not such a bad thing that profs give a jolt to freshmen who are used to get straight As. The issue is for the students not to be demoralized but to learn from the experience about study skills, perseverance and taking the appropriate courses.</p>
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I like the idea of study groups; not relying on classmates for rumors, but helping one another review the materials, go over problem sets, and so forth. This is much encouraged in several of my S's classes.
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My son and his friends also work on problem sets in groups. In fact, next semester, he and four friends will probably be taking the same physics class, and will certainly work together. This type of thing certainly stands in sharp contrast to the oft repeated notion that Harvard students are so cut-throat and competitive.</p>
<p>Robyrm: You got a 17?! Way to go! My first Kemp exam I got a ZERO. I didn't even get the pity point for my name, because I misspelled my own name. I did get to retake it, though, because the med dept documented the nasty drug they'd give me for the migraine I got from the stress of studying for the exam... </p>
<p>I remember getting a 40 (out of 140) on an exam in biochemistry (from Gene Brown)--and it was class average. On an open book test... ("Postulate a pathway from X to Y using known enzymes" was one of the questions. One student postulated the pathway that was eventually verifed by one of Brown's graduate students.)</p>