Ivy League student debt

Wasn’t it just yesterday that there was a thread about an Ivy grad who was going to become a high school teacher in California? She surely could not have that option with massive student debt.

In this case, with the potential of law school on the horizon…yikes. Not every lawyer makes lots of money; the OP would be limiting himself in the areas of practice because he would be forced to consider only high-salary fields. To sign on for something at 18 that will significantly limit your choices and impact your lifestyle for many years seems to be the opposite of the allure of an Ivy League education.

One of the few times I agree with @CourtneyThurston borrowing the entire amount of a Yale education (especially if you are considering law school) is extremely risky and is the type of situation that just might end up with you in the paper. Unless your parents are committing to servicing your debt both during and after school, I (and probably many others) would strongly advise against taking on that much debt. It would severely limit your career options and post graduation life choices.

"Not every lawyer makes lots of money; "

In fact right now the field is super oversaturated. Most law grads I know are struggling to find jobs.

@thumper 1 “I want to know how a family who received NO need based aid from Yale…can’t “scrape together” the cost to attend. Their annual income has to exceed $200,000 a year.”

As strange as it may sound, this income range is one of the worst for affording a school like Yale. Let’s say that they make $200K with both spouses working, and have 3 children. They will pay about 25% total in taxes (fed + state + local + sales … would actually be higher than that in aggregate, but they have deductions). They have paid off all of their own student debt and are now saving 10% toward retirement. The $200K is now $130K. Their company (like mine), may only offer high deductible health plans and charge more each month for higher earners. They pay $1000/month for health insurance --that would be a high-deductible plan, so average another $500 month for out of pocket costs. That’s $18,000/yr for family health insurance/costs, so we are at $112K. They own a house with a $3500/month mortgage (could be much higher in this income bracket), so that’s another $42,000 a year. $70K left. They have 3 cars (the kids all share one old one), and a conservative cost of owning a car is $725/month. We’ll say the kids car is a junker, both of the parents’ cars have over 100K miles, and they do some work on them themselves, so they get that down to $1500 a month for all three – probably unrealistically low given they are paying insurance on 2 or 3 student drivers, but that’s another $18,000/year. We are now at $52K – already well below the $75K/year for Yale. And the family hasn’t yet gone on a vacation, given a cent to charity, or for that matter eaten. A two income family with 3 children probably is busy, and paying for lawncare, eating out more, and perhaps even biweekly house cleaning, because neither spouse is at home enough to avoid those expenses. Their kid got into Yale, so clearly they are funding some sports and EC activities, music lessons, etc. for each of their 3 kids. This is a very conservative family, with kids in public schools, and they can’t come close to “scraping together” $75K/year.

Don’t forget that this family hasn’t been making $200K for the past 18 years – that’s what they make now, and they probably were just barely getting by and saving nothing for several years when their family was young. If they saved carefully, lived frugally, invested wisely, and weren’t hugely impacted by the recession and housing bubble in 2009 (many of us sending our kids to college right now lost jobs and a lot of investment capital while our kids were growing up) , they might have $50K saved up in a college fund for each child. That would be very impressive. But of course all of this hard work and savings only reinforces the fact that they will qualify for no need-based aid anywhere. For this Yale student, that $50K wouldn’t even pay for a single year.

I know I’ve gone on too long, and I don’t mean to rant, but the bottom line is that in fact, I would flip your comment and say that I would be ASTOUNDED if ANY family earning $200K could pay $75/K year toward college for even a single child out of their income.

OP, if you are still reading this thread, your parents have done nothing wrong to end up here. The college economics are just stacked against them for you to be able to afford Yale. Even if they are willing to support your dreams and co-sign the loan, and would strongly recommend you consider a very good school with a large merit scholarship, which you likely can find if you can get into Yale. You will get a great education, can afford to go to a top 10 law school, and still end up in the same place you want in your career while having an amazing undergraduate experience.

@NashvilletoTexas Their income isn’t $200k. if it were, they would have gotten about $40-50k of aid. Their income/assets are significantly higher, so your calculations really don’t apply.

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@thumper 1 "I want to know how a family who received NO need based aid from Yale…can’t “scrape together” the cost to attend. Their annual income has to exceed $200,000 a year


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Since Yale gives super aid, they typically only expect families to pay 10% of their income, unless they have substantial assets.

Since they got ZERO aid, that suggests that their income is much higher than $200k, and/or they have incredible assets.

Who gets ZERO aid from Yale? Very affluent people.

Perhaps the family has a business that is worth a LOT or they own multiple properties, so cash flow is the issue.

Still it seems odd that such affluent people can’t pay much/anything towards college. It sounds like they can’t even pay $25k per year.

We understand why maybe they can’t pay $70k per year…but why can’t they pay $20k?

NashvilletoTexas- thanks for your analysis, but believe it or not, there are people earning 200K who are in fact full pay at colleges like Yale.

The key of course- is not having a $3500 mortgage, not buying that third car (or even a second car if they live in DC, NY, Boston, Chicago, or another place with good public transportation), mowing their own lawn and cleaning their own house.

I remember a conversation with neighbors after one of them had been downsized from her job. Everyone was commiserating (in a genuinely nice way, not a snarky way) and throwing out “here’s what we’ve done” in terms of belt-tightening.

I had to laugh (inside of course) because the things they were all “cutting from the budget” were things we had never done to begin with (so nothing to cut). HBO, gym/health club, lawn service, pricey kids travel sports leagues, swim club… somehow my kids survived their childhood by learning to swim at the YMCA and by watching network television. Oh- and by living in our “starter house”.

It is not necessary to buy your teenager a car. It is not necessary to hire someone to cut your grass. And most certainly is not necessary to pay $3500/month in a mortgage, even in an expensive part of the country. Everytime someone in my office complains that the price of real estate in New Canaan or Darien (two very pricey suburbs on the MetroNorth train line to midtown Manhattan- so an easy commute via public transportation) I point out that Norwalk (you can walk to Norwalk from Darien) is half the price for a similar house. Someone HAS to live in Bronxville- well Yonkers is the next town over, a house is LESS than half the price.

blossom – I respectfully disagree. I tried to use some conservative average costs – I was not referring to my own spending habits, but those that are lower than average. If that family has two cars (the cost I used was actually the AAA average cost for owning 2 cars), a @2000/month mortgage, and pays for no services, they still don’t have an extra $75K/year. I live in an area surrounded by Dave Ramsey employees. I don’t know any of them who could pull that off. I have no idea what this individual’s family income or spending habits are. I was responding to the statement made that a family making $200K or more a year should be able to afford $75K/year college costs out of pocket. I still do not think that is a realistic statement, but I am happy to be proven wrong if in fact their are many families at CC with multiple kids who are doing it.

For anyone interested, I couldn’t find an online calculator for Yale aid. I used the Stanford one as a point of reference, since it is simple to use and they also are reputed to be generous, and the fictional family I described would qualify for $30K/yr of need-based aid at Stanford, so I agree that the scenario of receiving no financial aid with a $200K income at Yale is probably unrealistic.

Why can’t a family with $200,000 income live and spend like a family with $70,000 income, saving and investing the rest?

i think nashville is yanking our chain. did a 1 second google search for ‘yale npc’ and it’s the first link. 3 minutes later after plugging in 200,000 and nothing else, net price is about 28k. there is definitely more FA info at play than the 200k income.

What I think would be great would be to hear from actual Ivy grads. We rarely do. I did ask my son and he is of the opinion that he would not have gone to the Ivy if he had had to borrow the whole amount. But the other sacrifices he made to be there to HIM were well, well worth it. My relative from another Ivy said the name has indeed helped his career, without question, due to contacts and getting doors opened with much greater ease than others he knows.

But I don’t know that most Ivy graduates feel that way. It would really be nice to hear from recent grads with heavy debt, for this poster and for general information and thought.

Most of us on here believe in taking affordable, good options.The posts tend to argue that where you go rarely makes a difference in life, but what you owe makes a huge difference. I think my daughter was wiser to go to a lower tier for free. I would love to hear from some HYP grads especially. Perhaps they are too busy to be on cc??? :slight_smile:

https://admissions.yale.edu/yale-net-price-calculator is Yale’s net price calculator.

This poster seems to be talking about borrowing the full cost. Which means the family can’t Pay anything. That seems quite unusual for an income that high.

Expensive top privates that meet “full need” are for (1) those whose “need” is fully, or almost fully, met and (2) the very wealthy.

There are many out there who these schools deem “not needy” and they cannot afford to go. They may be “not needy” for many reasons; sometimes just poor fiscal planning, sometimes unusual circumstances outside their control. It is very rare that I would recommend taking on huge debt for an undergraduate degree. It would have to be some pretty unique program with a big payoff, and at a school that has a proven track record of recruitment with high salaries unmatched by cheaper schools. Yale/Econ doesn’t fall within that category.

It’s not the end of the world to pass on Yale. My oldest makes a very nice amount of money. He graduated from a big public flagship. He had an (almost) full ride. He works alongside people from all the top schools, including Yale. What you study, your grades, your internships, and frankly your personality/people skills, will affect your future income more than the school you went to, in most fields.

@david_p

So…are you now thinking of Stanford? Since you are now inquiring about that school on another thread?

Did Stanford give you enough need based aid to be affordable without taking out loans for the full cost of attendance?

The 10% of income at HPY is a myth. Harvard gives great aid and I’m happy but when they advertise that families from $70,000 to $180,000 (unsure of top end?) pay around 10%, that must be an average. Our aid matched the NPC within $500 but it’s 16% of our gross income and we are not high asset (I changed assets to zero and the net cost didn’t change). I expect those closer to $70,000 annual income are less than 10% and $180,000 is probably closer to 20%. I haven’t tried just punching numbers in the NPC to see where it’s 10%.

Now, I think the number is fair, especially compared to other privates, but it is a number that requires penny pinching including cutting back on retirement savings and we live quite modestly for our income bracket.

The example given earlier is key, the income that parents are making when a kid enters college is not the average income across the last 20 years.

I think OP needs to realize that $50-60k out of undergrad is an incredible salary. The expectation to make six figures day one is just not realistic unless you are in a rare few career fields and most of those are high stress or specialized engineering.

The most trivial entry-level job with economics degree from Rutgers in the NYC metro pays 50K/y.
WS IB pays 85K/y + sign in bonus + eventual yearly bonus. If OP dedicates himself to obtaining such a job and lives like a monk for 4-5 years he can make it.
He can earn a few thousands during the academic year and also the first summer. He can earn 8K - 18K during his next summer internships (minus living expenses). He can move off-campus and save a few thousands on room and board. He can further economize on personal expenses keeping them below Yale’s generous allowance.
The claim that a family not eligible for any Yale finaid cannot contribute anything for college expenses looks fishy.

But who WANTS to live like a Monk? You act like it’s easy to just live with 100% discipline. It’s not, and it’s also not realistic.

I have a junior in another Ivy and receives no FA. Income is a little bit above 200K. Just for kick, I entered our info at Yale’s NPC, and gotten 0 aid. We have savings/investments and a rental that were considered. I remember when my kid was applying to schools few years ago that Yale’s calculated net cost is way higher than HPS. I think once you crossed a certain threshold (maybe 225K household income and 300K in assets, aids are not that generous anymore.)

I mean very few people who went to an Ivy are going to be like “oh no I totally regret it”. Like, there comes a point where you have to justify your own life choices.

Meanwhile the rest of us work alongside Ivy grads who make the same as us, and it’s like… k

I plugged in my family income (about 150k with my earnings) and received about a 20k/yr award from the NPC. Idk take that as it is I guess