<p>Unfortunately, I have to agree with fireandrain. After a week of consoling high school kids who didn’t get in to an Ivy, I must say it is hard to swallow. Over the weekend I consoled my son’s friend who is in the top 2% of his class, at a school that is top 25 in the nation, 3.97 GPA, 2300 SAT, 14 AP’s, plays an instrument on the national level, leadership, writer for school newspaper, just an all-around accompished nice-kid. No Ivy for him. Perhaps he should have applied to all 8… his problem? Upper-middle class white kid. There I said it. Other kids ranked lower than him got their Ivy acceptances (all URM’s or legacies). Another kids with similar stats (okay, only got 2280 on SAT!!!) similar situation. I find it mind boggling. And he’s not the only one. I had three kids at my house with better stats and similar/better accomplishments that didn’t get into an Ivy. </p>
<p>Now that it has hit home, I’ve had to question my thinking about AA. While I am so happy for my friends son who got accepted to his Ivy, am I a little miffed that he has lower numbers, less EC’s and AP’s than the kids mentioned above. His father is a doctor and his mother a nurse. But he is URM. This is where I start to have trouble rationalizing…</p>
<p>I’m sure this is an old argument that comes up every year around this time. </p>
<p>Yes, I am very happy for this young man. I hope he does amazingly well. He deserved to get in with those stats. But then, so do a lot of other kids with better stats… I believe that the system needs a revamp.</p>
Many people are happy when kids from tough backgrounds get into good schools; we don’t begrudge them one of the few times that their lack of opportunity works in their favour, not against them</p>
<p>But when you see kids from good backgrounds get into a school based on their surface similarities to disadvantaged groups (e.g. President Obama saying that he thought his daughters should be eligible for affirmative action), people justly get mad. It’s no longer about ensuring that the inner-city kid gets a break in life, finally.</p>
<p>Which is to say, I’m somewhat agnostic on affirmative action, but much prefer when it’s used for socioeconomic background than just for race. </p>
<p>I am guessing that the 7 schools after admission to Princeton EA was probably a result of inexperienced school counselors and parents rather than an attempt to accomplish what he did. I don’t think he was hording spots, I am just guessing that his counselors wanted him to apply to a slew of schools to find one that was affordable and obtainable.</p>
<p>mythreesons, I don’t think you agree with me. Probably a different poster.</p>
<p>awcntdb: The journalist is not writing for CC, or for people who go to the Ivies and other competitive schools. For the people who read this article, 2250 is close to perfect. </p>
<p>If private schools want to admit immigrants as a way to increase diversity, thats their choice.
But as an observer of the education system, and of a limited selection of minority families, articles that emphasize the achievements of immigrants, without equal time to those who are minorities but citizens by birth, seems to contribute to the disparity in expectations and achievement.</p>
<p>A first generation college student may have as many hurdles as a first generation American. Perhaps more going by measured achievement in our school district, where in many cases pinpointing socioeconomic diversity, is the same as racial diversity.</p>
<p>@fireandrain - I agree for whom the article was written, and that is why I find it so disingenuous.</p>
<p>It misrepresents to others who do not know what other students need to do to get in, which is, in at least half the cases, be even better. The article left this image that he was some high-water mark, which he is not. Deserving, sure; an Ivy League sage, no. </p>
<p>You are correct - mythreesons does not agree with you. I saw that, but did not know how to address it. Glad you mentioned it directly. </p>
<p>No, fireandrain, he didn’t. He suggested that they shouldn’t get more advantages than a poor white kid whose parents haven’t been to college, but it was anything but an outright repudiation - and in fact, seemed to suggest that they should get some advantages over similarly well-off white students. </p>
<p>As far as I can tell from the sources I can find, somewhere around 2100 on the soon-to-be-outmoded SAT puts a student in range of the Ivy League. Not 2400. I have read, and believe, that “colleges fill their classes from the bottom up.” </p>
<p>Perhaps the era of the overscheduled, exhausted upper class superperson applicant is nearing an end. </p>
It’s not a hard cut off, such as above 2100 is fine, and below 2100 gets automatically rejected. For example, the stats Brown provides at <a href=“Undergraduate Admission | Brown University”>Undergraduate Admission | Brown University; show acceptance rate gradually decreases as test scores go down. 700-740 V has a 10.5% acceptance rate, 650-690 has a 8% rate, 600-640 has a 6% rate, etc. I expect most of this difference in acceptance rate relates to the scores being correlated with other parts of the application, rather than the scores themselves. Top test score apps are more likely to have excellent grades, awards, ECs, LORs, … than lower scoring applicants, so the whole application tends to get better as scores increase.</p>
<p>^^ While there is no hard cut-off at any of the Ivys, common sense says for HPY to have averages of 2240 - 2255, there are not too many below 2100s flying around. This student is right smack in the middle at 2250. He definitely has the scores to be there, but so does about 800 kids who scored higher than he did. He does better at the other Ivys. </p>
<p>I think people place too much focus on stats and ECs. I used to attend high school in the US. Like clockwork, the top few kids at that school were admitted to almost every top tier school they applied to. This year, one Asian female girl got into HYM (at least). I personally don’t find any of her ECs inspiring or original - she’s president of a few clubs, did some kind of research in her dads’ friends’ lab, did a research internship offered by the university and had a very high GPA/SAT. Kids with similar ECs have been admitted to the same top schools from that high school since forever. Many students with lesser stats/ECs get WL-ed at HYPSM.</p>
<p>I can only speculate why that school is so popular. Perhaps it’s well established or has an excellent track record. I am far more impressed with my fellow international applicants who have started major organizations or placed well at large competitions. But obviously, admissions officers have particular needs and considerations which include AA and regional quotas. </p>
<p>I really enjoyed @Ghostt 's post. All an applicant can really do is try to be innovative and interesting and pay attention to all parts of the application (including recs and essays) and apply many places. Upon some reflection, I realized that a few of my essays did not really match the ‘ethos’ of the school or simply were not my best work. However, after looking at my essays for the school that did accept me (and seems to like me quite a bit), I realized that I came off as a particular kind of person that they seemed to value. </p>
<p>My school has never sent any students to Ivies before. We’re fairly new and have a decent AP program but we’re nothing like the major established schools in the city. However, this year - two students (me and a student on a gap year) were accepted while many applicants from more well known schools were rejected. Who knows why the tide turned this year - perhaps they thought our acceptances would encourage more students to apply. Or maybe we just stood out - both the other kid and I did a lot of external, non-school EC stuff compared to the other student (think traditional US applicant). He definitely didn’t take as many APs as I did, but he is an extremely talented filmmaker. </p>
<p>I am writing a guide for future applicants from my school and I think the most important bit of advice is to do your best and go in with your eyes open. If you are a legitimate Ivy candidate, you should have lots of really good options. This article was clearly written as an inspirational, ‘pick me up’ kind of story which future applicants would do well to avoid. </p>
<p>“Yes, I am very happy for this young man. I hope he does amazingly well. He deserved to get in with those stats. But then, so do a lot of other kids with better stats… I believe that the system needs a revamp.” </p>
<p>Mythreesons1144, you do realize that you contradicted yourself?</p>
<p>If he deserves to be admitted, then why does “the system needs a revamp.”</p>
<p>True, but I think it’s a dead-certainty that the admissions decisions that provoked this thread are equal evidence that we do not live in a post-racial society. </p>
<p>He sounds like a great kid, and he didn’t get to this point by accident - there’s no doubt he worked very hard to get where is, and he wasn’t admitted as an undeserved gift. </p>
<p>But you know if he were Asian male, or a Caucasian female, he might well have gone 0-for-8. There are no doubt thousands of applicants to those colleges whose resumes are comparable to his who were denied - and I’m not entirely sure I could explain to them that this was somehow “fair.”</p>
<p>None of this is a surprise, and I’m happy for him - I hope he takes advantage and makes the most of his opportunity and his talents to become a leader of society down the road. </p>
<p>"But you know if he were Asian male, or a Caucasian female, he might well have gone 0-for-8. There are no doubt thousands of applicants to those colleges whose resumes are comparable to his who were denied - and I’m not entirely sure I could explain to them that this was somehow “fair.” "</p>
<p>That is precisely why the system needs to be revamped.</p>
You also need to consider how many sub 2100 applicants applied. For example, the Brown stats I linked earlier, show the application pool is largely self selecting, with the stats of the entering class having a notable correlation with the stats of the applying students. The stat groups with the most applying students tends to be the stat groups with the largest portion of the entering class. Locations of students show a similar pattern. The locations with the most applying students tend to be the locations that have largest portion of the entering class. Ivy league schools don’t have many students from Wyoming flying around, but this doesn’t tell us that being from Wyoming kills your chances of admission to the ivy league.</p>
<p>The Brown data doesn’t show SAT combined scores, so I’ll us the ACT equivalent of a ~2100 instead. They indicate 57% of the entering class (who submitted ACT) had an ACT score of 32 or lower, which is similar to 2100 SAT or lower, while 66% of applicants had a score of 32 or lower. If applications (and yield decisions) were completely random, 66% would have a 32 or lower, but instead 57% do. This suggests that sub 2100 students are a bit less likely to be admitted to Brown than the overall class, but it still doesn’t tell us if the score is having an impact on the decisions since the sub 2100 applicants also are expected to have a lower GPA than the overall class, weaker course rigor, weaker LORs, etc. Many other aspects of the application could have been the driving factor, rather than the scores themselves. The results certainly do not imply that one needs a 2100 at Brown.</p>
<p>This is highly school-dependent. Not even considering the caliber or talent pool of the school, some schools have long-standing relationships with certain schools. </p>
<p>Wow, I’m really tired of seeing people bash URM Ivy League admits. Sure, he has a hook. He’s also clearly a qualified, hard working boy with a bright future ahead of him. Congratulations to him!</p>
<p>He’s not hoarding spots because it’s not possible to hoard spots. You can enroll in only one college at a time. If his choice of college leaves holes in each of the incoming classes the seven Ivy schools he didn’t choose, the colleges will merely fill those holes from the waiting list - a list of students they really wanted but didn’t have room for. </p>
<p>Except at the school he actually chooses, he’s not keeping anyone out of “their” desired spot, because sooner or later he won’t be holding down the spot any more. It will open up for the eager runner-up on the wait-list. If by then the wait-listed student no longer wants the spot, well, that’s a different issue.</p>
<p>Exactly. I am absolutely flabbergasted by the number of snide remarks to the effect of, “I am sorry for the many kids who accomplished more than him but were not accepted.” Hello? The guy has great grades, a great SAT score, great rigor, great extracurriculars. He seems accomplished, wholesome, smart. Even by the narrow and uninformed standards of this forum, his acceptance to any school shouldn’t surprise anybody.</p>