<p>Yes, the the thread clearly has a mission…whether it will succeed is another question.</p>
<p>In its 2009 edition of The Best 361 Colleges, the Princeton Review awarded College of the Holy Cross a 98 academic rating. Only 5 colleges or universities were awarded a higher academic rating</p>
<p>“You missed the whole point of the thread. Its about what people perceive to be the much sought after “Ivy League” education, always in quotes, without that kind of elitism.”</p>
<p>I did not miss your point. I too was pointing to the lack of elitism on some elite campuses, which is why I thought it would be a propos to mention some public flagships. </p>
<p>“And I am clearly talking about undergraduate education, which is how the Ivies got started in the first place.”</p>
<p>I was referring to undergraduate education. Believe it or not, most universities (public or private) founded before the Civil war were intended to be undergraduate institutions. Graduate programs did not come to prominance until the early 20th century.</p>
<p>“The thread is to reveal the myth of Ivy superiority, not to confirm it. You need to read more carefully and critically.”</p>
<p>I don’t see how I confirmed Ivy League superiority. </p>
<p>“And you are still misrepresenting the Chicago/Big Ten discussion that occurred in a completely different thread for some reason.”</p>
<p>Shanka, I brought up the Chicago/Big 10 discussion as an illustration of how you are given to making sweeping statements that are generally incorrect, such as insinuating that classes with 300 students taught by TAs are the norm at public universities.</p>
<p>“And you are still misrepresenting the Chicago/Big Ten discussion that occurred in a completely different thread for some reason.”</p>
<p>“Shanka, I brought up the Chicago/Big 10 discussion as an illustration of how you are given to making sweeping statements that are generally incorrect, such as insinuating that classes with 300 students taught by TAs are the norm at public universities.”</p>
<p>Its an illustration of nothing since you misrepresented what the discussion was about and what I said. But it was a nice college try. And sitting through 300 student lecture classes, especially freshman year, is by far more of the norm at big public research universities than it is in small liberal arts colleges which is the subject matter of this thread. In fact, I don’t even know what point you are trying to make other than to derail this discussion. So have fun.</p>
<p>In my opinion, at a large Public Research University (at least in the Midwest, where those schools are king), you’re going to find more opportunity and better professors. I feel like, of all the factors you would compare when it comes to undergraduate education, class-size should be the least important. Wouldn’t quality of instruction, research opportunity, networking opportunity, involvement in the surrounding community all be more important factors in your overall education? Making a comparison close to home, I saw UMinnesota-Twin Cities and UW-Madison offer those better than a school like Macalester, and I imagine schools like UT, UM(ich), UIUC, and similar schools can offer the same.</p>
<p>In addition, you’ll find many, many people at those Universities who are paying in-state tuition to avoid higher costs, as opposed to what you’ll find at many LACs, where tuition is very expensive.</p>
<p>Swarthmore and Haverford. Especially Swat. I personally think it’s a better school than Amherst or Williams. It’s a top feeder to grad schools. The honors program with that Oxford-style thing they do…no equal even at the ivies. Kids come out of swat, head to Harvard grad school, and find it easy. They say.</p>
<p>Why doesn’t somewhere here look at rankings for undergrad teaching, seems like it would be key to this discussion. Anyone have that list?</p>
<p>Redroses, there are several rankings for undergraduate teaching, including one by the USNWR compiled in the latest ranking. However, I do not think those rankings are reliable or accurate.</p>
<p>According to US News:</p>
<p>Best Colleges: Undergraduate Teaching at Liberal Arts Colleges</p>
<p>Pomona College
Swarthmore College
Davidson College
Oberlin College
Earlham College
Carleton College
Haverford College
Williams College
Reed College
College of Wooster
Centre College
Sewanee–University of the South
University of North Carolina–Asheville
Amherst College
St. Olaf College
Wabash College
Agnes Scott College
Calvin College
College of St. Benedict
College of the Holy Cross
Connecticut College
Fisk University
Furman University
Hamilton College
Pitzer College
St. John’s University
Wellesley College</p>
<p>Best Colleges: Undergraduate Teaching at Nat’l Universities</p>
<p>Dartmouth College
Princeton University
Yale University
Stanford University
University of Maryland–Baltimore County
Brown University
College of William and Mary
Duke University
Miami University–Oxford
University of Notre Dame
Bowling Green State University
Howard University
Rice University
University of California–Berkeley
University of Chicago
University of Michigan–Ann Arbor
University of North Carolina–Chapel Hill
University of St. Thomas
Wake Forest University</p>
<p>Best Undergrad teaching National Universities:</p>
<p>[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank)</p>
<ol>
<li>Dartmouth</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>U of Maryland-Balt</li>
<li>Brown</li>
<li>William and Mary</li>
<li>Notre Dame</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Miami of Ohio</li>
</ol>
<p>Best undergraduate teaching, LACs:</p>
<p>[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/libarts-ut-rank]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/libarts-ut-rank)</p>
<p>Pomona College Claremont, CA 1<br>
Swarthmore College Swarthmore, PA 2<br>
Davidson College Davidson, NC 3<br>
Oberlin College Oberlin, OH 3<br>
Earlham College Richmond, IN 5<br>
Carleton College Northfield, MN 6<br>
Haverford College Haverford, PA 6<br>
Williams College Williamstown, MA 8<br>
Reed College Portland, OR 9<br>
College of Wooster Wooster, OH 10</p>
<p>I think one can find a very intimate style of teaching and instruction at large state schools, it just doesn’t appear as easily as it would at an LAC. I attended a very large school - about 20,000 undergrads - and every single one of my classes was taught by a professor. Also, I would say my average class had 12 or 13 students, with sometimes as few as 3 or 4. I was in an Honors program, though, so my experience is perhaps not typical of the average student at the school. However, even those students who weren’t in the honors program had only about 25 classmates.</p>
<p>“Redroses, there are several rankings for undergraduate teaching, including one by the USNWR compiled in the latest ranking. However, I do not think those rankings are reliable or accurate”</p>
<p>Of course not, because it doesn’t help your argument regarding huge public research universities. LOL.</p>
<p>Shanka, Cal, Michigan and UNC were ranked 11th in that ranking.</p>
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<p>Nor do they help you in your quest to trash the Ivy League, since Ivys swept the top three spots and four of the top six.</p>
<p>I am not trying to trash the Ivy League, rather the thread is about colleges that provide a quality undergraduate “IL like” education without the attendant Ivy league elitism. In other words, since 99% of the threads around here seem centered on the Ivy League, a discussion about overlooked schools that are gems with many of the same qualities that most of the Ivies once provided (and some still do), but without the snootiness factor.</p>
<p>Bottom line, it’s just ignorant to believe the ivies remain elitist instutitions and don’t offer top undergrad eduction todaay. The first point you could have won 30 years ago, but to make an argument for Grinnell or Mac over them today on the basis of either elitism or superior teaching is just going to be very, very tough.</p>
<p>The other schools being hidden gems is another thread without the comparison. Hard to imagine for some, but the world’s obsession with the IL and it’s peers may have some merit.</p>
<p>“Such scholarships are almost always sponsored by an outside family or foundation, however, and are not included in my institutional figures.”</p>
<p>college-sponsored national merit schoarships are just what they say they are. They are sponsored by the college. Not an outside family or foundation. The college. When D1 was applying, Oberlin, Carleton and Macalester gave merit scholarships of this type to NM semi-finalsits. This was institutional aid. She was offered awards at two of them.</p>
<p>boy, you guys are providing some fun reading here</p>
<p>please continue</p>
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<p>You were back on post #19 when you said:</p>
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<p>If you are trying to reveal Ivy superiority in undergrad education as a “myth” it’s best to avoid the USNews ranking of undergrad teaching quality, because it is yet another in an endless stream of various rankings with a bunch of Ivys clustered at the very top.</p>
<p>I never said ALL Ivy League schools fall short in undergrad education, and in fact in several places acknowledged that many still do obviously provide such. The myth is that ALL the Ivies do much better than ALL other schools, and that the Ivies are the be all and end all, and the point is that the noise from the constant focus on Ivies drowns out and obscures, imo, the quality of much lesser known schools who are doing a darn good job at teaching undergraduates at nearly or equal to the same level. Again, without the hype and the elitism.</p>