<p>Quit while you’re ahead. Oh, wait…</p>
<p>“I fear that liberal education in the research universities, despite the recent hoopla, is a project in ruins.” It threatens the “vitality” of our democracy. Improving undergraduate education “is simply not on their agenda…the priorities have been reversed.”</p>
<p>Dr. Stanley Katz, Director of Princeton’s Center for Arts and Cultural Policy Studies (and Harvard alum). April 1, 2005 Chronicle of Higher Education.</p>
<p>There is a problem in that schools that are academic equivalents to the Ivy League tend to best known to elitists. I have no idea what to do with this conundrum, if “elitism” is your worry.
Maybe go to Berea? If your parents are elite on the income, you may not qualify. Good luck on this one.</p>
<p>“The worship of the Ivies is nonsense. The writers of such stuff don’t know what they are talking about. Readers are bamboozled; it is analogous to the fable of the emperor having no clothes. Not a single Ivy offers the benefits these colleges do. They lack the kind of student-teacher dialogue, the close sense of community, the collaborative learning, the emphasis on values and student growth, or student involvement in his own education that these colleges do.”</p>
<p>Loren Pope, Colleges that Change Lives</p>
<p>Hahahahahahaha…if he said this without financial gain he might have had more credibility. But he wanted to sell books, make a fortune on college fairs for the B student and tell the 99% of the world that can’t get into an ivy what they want to hear for personal gain.</p>
<p>Wow, are you jaded…</p>
<p>Pope graduated from De Pauw University in Indiana, worked for the New York Times, and said that you could do very well in life attending schools such as his. Absolutely true.
There was no attached convincing argument that De Pauw would change your life more than Yale would. Or Harvard or Williams.</p>
<p>“There was no attached convincing argument that De Pauw would change your life more than Yale would. Or Harvard or Williams”</p>
<p>You obviously have not read his book. And I am not necessarily agreeing with everything he says, but he makes pretty strident anti Ivy arguments all through the book.</p>
<p>You are attempting to praise one set of schools at the expense of another set. I suggest you stop. There are better ways to bring more attention to good non-Ivy League schools without trashing the Ivies, and you’re much more likely to get a better response if you just quit while you’re ahead.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In my opinion, class-size is one of the most important factors. Small average class size is a distinctive feature of nearly all of the most selective, highly-regarded colleges and universities (especially at well-endowed private schools).</p>
<p>In undergraduate education, for most good students, the classroom experience is the main event. Everything else is a side-show. The one important advantage you get from a lecture class, compared to simply reading a text book, is the opportunity to raise your hand and ask a question. This advantage is all the greater in small seminar classes and labs. Small classes also create greater opportunity for the instructor to provide detailed feedback on written assignments.</p>
<p>There is only limited objective evidence to compare the advantages and disadvantages of LACs v. national universities. What exists is problematical, but suggestive that LACs do have some advantages. 7 of the top 10 schools for per capita PhD production are LACs, and all 10 have very small average class sizes ([COLLEGE</a> PHD PRODUCTIVITY](<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/ir/phd.html]COLLEGE”>Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College)). According to the Wall Street Journal’s study of professional school placements, nearly half of the top 50 “feeder schools” are LACs; almost all of the 50 offer very small average class sizes. A study of where faculty children attend college found that they disproportionately favor selective LACs, even after controlling for the size of the parent’s school ([ScienceDirect</a> - Economics of Education Review : Where do the children of professors attend college?](<a href=“http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VB9-4G7NT5H-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1347397350&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1ab2f878ff73192f9539bb396cb1603b]ScienceDirect”>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VB9-4G7NT5H-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1347397350&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1ab2f878ff73192f9539bb396cb1603b)) All else being equal, smaller classes mean higher quality of instruction and better research opportunities. More alumni do create more networking opportunities, but this is independent of average class size.</p>
<p>I respect Ivy League schools, in part because they offer the small class experience of a LAC, plus all the other opportunities of a research university. Can you get an Ivy-caliber education at Macalester? Maybe yes, maybe no. I suspect the quality of the average classroom experience is similar. Can you get an Ivy-caliber education at Reed or Swarthmore? I’m confident the answer to that is yes.</p>
<p>I do not see Macalester as a rival to the Ivies. I see Mac as a good school that is uber liberal and resting on its historical reputation. Their admit rate is 40%. As we prepare S2 for college apps, Macalester is not even on the radar. (nor is Carleton)</p>
<p>After much discussion, the only schools we are willing to fully fund for S2 are MIT, Princeton/Yale. He will be applying to Wash St. Louis for the merit aid and the U of MN Honors program. We see Northwestern and U Chicago as other top notch midwestern schools, but as with other top LAC’s cannot justify the price over the U of MN.</p>
<p>I guess to answer your question. I see Northwestern, U Chicago and Wash St. Louis as non Ivies where my child would receive an outstanding education.</p>
<p>^I always find it sad when parents say “I will only fund XXX schools”. Not that I’m disagreeing with your parenting method, I’m just saying that I’d feel enormously pressurized if I were your child or I’d disappoint you by “ending up at a state school”.</p>
<p>And so what if Mac’s acceptance rate is 40%? Sure, its much higher than the ivies, but its still pretty selective, especially if you take into account that schools in the midwest always have higher acceptance rate than schools in the northeast that are similarly ranked.</p>
<p>For full disclosure, I’m going to Mac this year, so yes, I’m biased.</p>
<p>^ I don’t know why we are singling out poor little Macalester, but I would not describe it as a rival to the Ivies, either. Who would? I only suggested that, strictly with respect to the quality of the undergraduate classroom experience, there may not be too much difference between the Ivies and many LACs (possibly including Macalester). However, there is a huge difference between a ~15-student freshman seminar (common at Ivies and LACs alike) and a >50-student introductory lecture class (not uncommon at many state universities).</p>
<p>Just to respond to a point made earlier in the thread, the USNWR rankings for Undergraduate teaching are a poor measure in this discussion because they separate LACs from Universities in their rankings. Saying “Pomona is #1!” doesn’t really mean much to compare an LAC to a University, because the University isn’t included in the ranking.</p>
<p>It sounds like Kajon’s son is from an area near where I am from, as the process he is going through is very similar to what mine was a year ago.</p>
<p>I guess I don’t understand the idea that Ivy Leaguers are going to be more elitist than people at top LACs. Most LACs in this discussion (although not all) don’t offer the same level of Financial Aid for their students, and most don’t do need-blind admissions. Both an LAC and a major State U will give you the opportunities of an Ivy Leage+ school, because as it was pointed out earlier, the Ivy League+ schools are admired for their mix of the two atmospheres.</p>
<p>But if you’re looking for a less “elitist” student body, you’re probably going to find more economic diversity at a State school that has a tuition 1/4 the size of these LACs.</p>
<p>I think the ultimate goal of a college degree is employability. This is where the Ivies have no rival. That Ivy degree opens doors and commands automatic respect of potential employers. You may be able to get a comparable education (or gain comparable knowledge) at some of these other schools, but I don’t think it will help future career prospects all that much.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This has nothing to do with my parenting method and everything to do with money. Since I am full pay I can see multiple benefits in sending my kid to MIT/P’ton/Yale. I would be thrilled (not disappointed) if S2 ended up at the Uof MN which is his first choice. We are not of the elitist attitude that you have to attend a top 20 school in order to be fulfilled.</p>
<p>I’m with neltharion (# 49) on this one. The Ivies are certainly fine colleges and while there is variation on their degree of commitment to undergrads, I don’t think anyone can plausibly claim that these are not excellent college choices. Tearing them down should not be the goal.</p>
<p>What should be the goal? Educate about the strength of the many non-Ivy options, many of which offer a superior undergraduate environment for many students. IMO, there are probably two dozen or more options for undergraduate education that would offer similar quality to what’s available for undergrad at the Ivies, particularly the non-HYP Ivies. </p>
<p>To pick up where tk left off in # 50, </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>lots of schools can do this and their students very much enjoy the experience. Looking at the Top 50 USNWR Nat’l Universities and the Top 30 LACs, here is how they compare on % of classes with fewer than 20 students:</p>
<p>% of classes with < 20 students, College</p>
<p>96.3% , US Military Acad
85.1% , Claremont McK
80.0% , Haverford
78.5% , Yale
78.5% , Scripps
77.2% , Columbia
77.1% , Harvard
75.3% , Northwestern
75.2% , Hamilton
75.1% , Swarthmore
74.9% , Princeton
74.8% , Williams
74.2% , Wash U
73.2% , U Chicago
72.9% , U Penn
72.8% , Tufts
72.2% , Stanford
71.7% , W&L
71.5% , Davidson
71.4% , Duke
70.8% , Caltech
70.6% , Brown
70.6% , U Richmond
70.3% , Vassar
70.3% , Barnard
70.1% , Amherst
70.1% , Pomona
69.6% , Middlebury
69.2% , Bryn Mawr
68.9% , Macalester
68.7% , Brandeis
68.7% , Bowdoin
68.6% , Wellesley
68.5% , Smith
68.3% , Oberlin
68.2% , Emory
67.7% , Vanderbilt
66.8% , Bates
65.8% , Carleton
65.6% , Grinnell
65.4% , Rice
65.2% , MIT
65.2% , Tulane
64.7% , Johns Hopkins
64.1% , Carnegie Mellon
64.0% , Colgate
64.0% , Mt. Holyoke
63.5% , USC
62.9% , Colorado College
62.6% , Wesleyan
62.5% , Dartmouth
61.1% , U Rochester
61.1% , US Naval Acad
60.3% , UC BERKELEY
59.7% , NYU
59.5% , Colby
59.4% , Case Western
58.8% , Harvey Mudd
58.1% , Cornell
56.4% , Georgetown
55.8% , Wake Forest
55.0% , Notre Dame
54.8% , Bucknell
54.1% , UCLA
52.6% , Rensselaer
51.7% , U Miami
50.0% , U VIRGINIA
48.7% , UC S BARBARA
48.4% , Lehigh
47.2% , Boston College
45.9% , U MICHIGAN
44.7% , WILLIAM & MARY
44.3% , U N CAROLINA
44.3% , UC IRVINE
43.8% , U WISCONSIN
41.9% , UC SAN DIEGO
39.8% , U FLORIDA
39.7% , GEORGIA TECH
38.7% , U ILLINOIS
36.3% , U TEXAS
34.9% , U WASHINGTON
33.9% , UC DAVIS
32.0% , PENN STATE</p>
<p>The most important factor in college experience is the student body. Another area where ivies have few rivals and Mac (again, only an example) isn’t one of them.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I agree. Loren Pope didn’t bring the Ivys to their knees with his book and neither will you with these little anti-Ivy threads on CC. The Ivy League is more popular than ever with no end in sight.</p>
<p>A better approach is to simply promote the other many fine schools that also offer a great education. In fact there is a running thread on the Parents board tha has been doing excatly that or a couple of years now. You can read about 40 pages of praise for other lesser know schools:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/370873-brag-about-your-lesser-known-school.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/370873-brag-about-your-lesser-known-school.html</a></p>
<p>redroses,
Student strength is definitely an important factor, but the Ivies hardly have this to themselves. Look at the depth of the student bodies at the USNWR Top 50 National Universities and the Top 30 LACs as measured by the % of students scoring 700+ on their SAT Critical Reading and SAT Math. It’s a bit of a blunt instrument measurement, but IMO not that far off as a proxy for measuring a student body’s strength. Plenty of schools compete very well with the Ivy colleges.</p>
<p>% of students scoring 700+ on CR , % of students scoring 700+ on Math , College ( Combined )</p>
<p>76% , 100% , Caltech ( 176% )
64% , 94% , Harvey Mudd ( 158% )
76% , 76% , Yale ( 152% )
73% , 77% , Princeton ( 150% )
76% , 74% , Pomona ( 150% )
58% , 85% , MIT ( 143% )
64% , 77% , Wash U ( 141% )
71% , 69% , U Chicago ( 140% )
65% , 67% , Dartmouth ( 132% )
60% , 71% , Northwestern ( 131% )
64% , 66% , Columbia ( 130% )
60% , 68% , Duke ( 128% )
58% , 66% , Brown ( 124% )
62% , 62% , Tufts ( 124% )
64% , 60% , Williams ( 124% )
65% , 59% , Swarthmore ( 124% )
57% , 66% , Stanford ( 123% )
63% , 60% , Amherst ( 123% )
52% , 70% , U Penn ( 122% )
53% , 65% , Rice ( 118% )
50% , 64% , Notre Dame ( 114% )
47% , 66% , Vanderbilt ( 113% )
54% , 56% , Georgetown ( 110% )
56% , 53% , Carleton ( 109% )
52% , 55% , Claremont McK ( 107% )
45% , 61% , Emory ( 106% )
45% , 60% , Johns Hopkins ( 105% )
41% , 64% , Cornell ( 105% )
54% , 51% , Bowdoin ( 105% )
51% , 54% , Wesleyan ( 105% )
52% , 51% , Haverford ( 103% )
49% , 53% , W&L ( 102% )
57% , 43% , Vassar ( 100% )
33% , 66% , Carnegie Mellon ( 99% )
49% , 48% , Middlebury ( 97% )
57% , 36% , Oberlin ( 93% )
48% , 43% , Wellesley ( 91% )
44% , 44% , Hamilton ( 88% )
38% , 46% , Colgate ( 84% )
33% , 50% , USC ( 83% )
38% , 43% , Brandeis ( 81% )
40% , 41% , Davidson ( 81% )
29% , 51% , UC BERKELEY ( 80% )
44% , 35% , Macalester ( 79% )
39% , 38% , Colby ( 77% )
41% , 35% , WILLIAM & MARY ( 76% )
43% , 33% , Scripps ( 76% )
23% , 52% , Rensselaer ( 75% )
43% , 32% , Grinnell ( 75% )
47% , 28% , Barnard ( 75% )
32% , 40% , U VIRGINIA ( 72% )
29% , 42% , Boston College ( 71% )
32% , 37% , NYU ( 69% )
22% , 46% , U MICHIGAN ( 68% )
43% , 24% , Tulane ( 67% )
19% , 47% , GEORGIA TECH ( 66% )
24% , 41% , Case Western ( 65% )
22% , 42% , U Rochester ( 64% )
12% , 52% , U ILLINOIS ( 64% )
20% , 40% , UCLA ( 60% )
39% , 21% , Bryn Mawr ( 60% )
35% , 25% , Mt. Holyoke ( 60% )
25% , 33% , Wake Forest ( 58% )
17% , 40% , Lehigh ( 57% )
16% , 40% , U WISCONSIN ( 56% )
29% , 27% , Colorado College ( 56% )
25% , 30% , U N CAROLINA ( 55% )
19% , 36% , Bucknell ( 55% )
31% , 18% , Smith ( 49% )
20% , 27% , U Miami ( 47% )
13% , 33% , UC SAN DIEGO ( 46% )
17% , 27% , US Naval Acad ( 44% )
17% , 25% , U FLORIDA ( 42% )
15% , 25% , U TEXAS ( 40% )
18% , 22% , US Military Acad ( 40% )
15% , 18% , U Richmond ( 33% )
11% , 20% , U WASHINGTON ( 31% )
8% , 18% , UC IRVINE ( 26% )
8% , 16% , UC DAVIS ( 24% )
9% , 15% , UC S BARBARA ( 24% )
7% , 15% , PENN STATE ( 22% )</p>
<p>na , na , Harvard ( na )
36% , na , Bates ( na )</p>