Is the Ivy league education really worth it when compared with a school such as William & Mary?
If money isn’t an object? If William & Mary is offering an athletic scholarship? In other words is the Ivy education/experience worth paying 25K more a year?
We are in a tough spot and it’s a painful decision. What makes it harder is that the Ivy’s aren’t a definite but when asked, Ivy coach has indicated our daughter has support and has admissible grades/test scores. She has had walk-on and scholarship opportunities from higher-ranked athletic schools but they have not been a great academic fit. She was convinced she wanted Ivy but now WM has offered her not only a spot but a scholarship. Worst case scenario is that she says no to WM and then doesn’t get into the Ivy :(. Need to give WM an answer but pre-reads at Ivies don’t occur until July. Also, our student doesn’t feel comfortable committing to something and then reneging on that commitment.
I know this is highly subjective and there is no real ‘answer’ but has anyone been in this same position and might have insight or experience (negative or positive).
Also, many negative reviews for WM online makes us nervous…but trying to be skeptical of them as well…everyone has a different experience.
What major is she considering? For some kids, say, those who are looking to go to Wall Street, people say that the networking at the Ivies is very helpful. For pre-meds, the Ivies aren’t very helpful because it’s so hard to keep your GPA high there. For engineering, Cornell, Penn, and Princeton are good bets but Harvard and Yale? Not as much. That said, kids at the Ivies are surrounded by passionate, brilliant peers and that can be a fantastic experience for them.
Two of my kids are at Cornell, but they are there because of Cornell’s excellent need-based financial aid. I wouldn’t pay $25,000 more even though my kids love the school and are thriving there, unless money were truly no object at all.
I don’t know much about William and Mary, so I can’t speak to that.
Does she love WM, the coaches, opportunities? How about the other schools she has visited… can she see herself at any of the schools she is considering? Sounds like she is academically strong… so finding the academic piece should give her options… But, at the end of the day, if she is not “all in” for the school she will be working, living, socializing etc. the transition (and everything that goes with it) will be really hard. Our D had offers from some very academic schools, in the end she chose a school that did not have “all the bells and whistles” because she could see herself excelling at her sport with the coaches/team mates she met on her official visit. Additionally, the school offers tremendous academic support for its’ athletes… so she knows they will be 100% invested in her not only athletically but academically. The process is tough. She does not regret not giving one of the schools an early verbal, even though that would have been easier… she waited and feels like she found her people and her place. Nothing is perfect and I am sure that next fall will be challenging… but at least she is excited about her sport and school and is looking forward to the experience/opportunities. It is hard but I would advise going through the process before committing to anything.
Thanks for the responses so far…here are my answers if that helps with advice
I really appreciate others sharing their experience - I keep hoping it will all work out in the end.
@cheetahgirl121 did she say no to a scholarship in not committing early? Most schools in this sport have their spots ‘spoken for’ by end of sophomore year… so it has been nerve-wracking for her not to be committed when so many others are and some team-mates don’t understand holding out for better academic opportunities. She wants to have a positive team experience for 4 years but she knows she is done with her sport after that so she wants to work hard to create opportunities beyond athletics.
Scholarship only pulled if academically ineligible or she violates a rule - if injured they said they would medically retire her with scholarship
We are stuck in that middle class bucket where we would be forced to pay full Ivy tuition but we don't have extra cars, homes, yachts etc. In short we can pay it but would certainly be nice not to have to.
Major is global studies/international relations - both Yale and WM seem strong there though at Yale you have to apply to the major sophomore year
Really likes coaches at the schools, really likes team at both and says she could be happy at both
Doesn't like the WM colors (prefers Navy :)).
She is strong academically but would likely not get into Ivy were it not for coach support - she is concerned that the students at the Ivies will be so much stronger than her and also terrified of suddenly getting a B and seeing the Ivy spot go away.
Tough decision - my family has been there and son ended up in the Ivy. William and Mary is a great school, no shame at all going there. I’d just throw a couple of things your way - first on financial aid. If you haven’t run the net cost calculator on the Yale website, I would encourage you to do so. It might surprise you. Like yours, mine needed coach support - I would be very, very surprised if a B, or even a couple of B’s, negatively impacted a supported athlete’s admission. That said, you can never know for sure. Wish I could give you better advice, all I can say is that’s its a great problem to have - she has excellent choices.
We had to make an almost identical decision a year ago: Ivy vs. W&M where the latter was half the cost. I am of the opinion that kids can get amazing educations at tons of schools which made the disparity in the cost hard to justify. I tried to inform our decision with pro and con lists, fuzzy ROI guesstimates, and other pseudo-pragmatic ways of making the choice. None of those approaches really worked. In the end, the family unanimously chose the Ivy simply because our son loved the school, team and coaches and because it was an experience my wife and I wanted our son to have. I guess I am reinforcing the point in your original post – “there is no right answer.”
We do know lots of kids at W&M and think it is a great place, BTW. Your daughter has awesome options.
I also think Cheetahgirl’s point about the early commit vs waiting is a good one. How will your daughter deal with the stress of waiting until July for the pre-read, and then after that until the fall when she gets a likely letter at the Ivy? Would she be happier to commit now and focus on enjoying the balance of her high school career knowing that W&M offers a great education and competitive athletic environment?
There is a reason why the commitments are non-binding - 15 year olds change their minds, parents’ finances change, grades happen or don’t happen, test scores aren’t quite what you thought they would be. No one wants to de-commit, but it happens all the time. While your D may have been offered a spot on the team, is that spot #8 or #28? You won’t know until she starts in 3 years and sees the other girls who have also been growing and improving for 3 years. The coach may not even be the same coach, the team may have had a good 2-3 seasons or it may be in last place in its conference. There is just a certain amount of faith you have to have in the process, but you have to like the school because that’s not going to change.
Has the Yale coach offered support? If so, that’s as good as it can get this early. It seems to work for those who want it. They keep their grades up, they do a lot of test prep to make sure their scores are high.
It doesn’t sound like your D is ready to commit, or ready to give up her Ivy dream. Are you sure you’d be full pay at Yale?
Yes, verbal commit but my daughter wouldn’t want to commit without at least intending it at this point.
She is a junior not a freshman so signing an NLI is only 9 months away
I have done the financial many times, quitting my job, selling my house, my kids, joining a Tibetan Monastery etc., and nothing budges it. I’m not complaining (well maybe a little) as we are blessed to be in this situation but, as stated, we aren’t rich either.
To the point about how do your daughter’s academics stack up relative to Yale athletic recruits, you might want to track down an Academic Index calculator at Tier One athletics or another site and see what that comes back with.
I believe varska ballparked the average Harvard recruit at about 210 and roughly the same would apply at Yale and Princeton. Obviously with variation by sport . . .some star athletes in high priority sports will be well below that . . . but it would give you some more data to factor in to your thinking.
Thanks @bluewater2015 - I have tried the calculator and she is a 210. I want this to be her choice but I have to say that I’m struggling with the idea that the ability to get into an Ivy as a recruited athlete seems like such a gift and one not to be wasted but to @twoinanddone’ s point, I’m somewhat afraid it is more my ‘ivy’ dream and not hers - and I don’t want to influence her in a negative way because of that.
210 is good news in that with those academics and if the coach uses a spot/Likely Letter on her, I think her chances of getting into Yale should be good. The coach can provide more specifics on what admissions is likely expecting for the particular sport, and you’ll also have to assess if you’re reasonably sure the coach will in fact use one of the team’s limited spots on your daughter.
None of which solves the question of cost, and the certainty of W&M relative to what seems like good prospects (but not certain by definition until the fall) at Yale . . . but the more information, the better.
Pretend it is next year and your D has been accepted to both schools, got a spot on both teams, and you can afford both. Which school would she choose? If the answer is WM (I’m not discounting that she might like the team better), then she should commit and apply ED. If the answer is Yale, and you CAN afford it, I think she should try for the school she really wants. If she doesn’t care which school or team, then take the sure thing now.
It’s a risk to wait, but maybe a risk you are think is worth it.
FWIW, we were in a similar situation and chose W&M. I would love to see links to “many negative reviews for WM online” as I haven’t seen many that I found credible. But I might have missed something.
Some W&M facilities are not at the same level as some Ivies (e.g., no A/C in many dorms), but it is a state school after all. I don’t think it has any impact on the actual education. Also, while there are many W&M traditions I don’t think there are any residential traditions like houses, eating clubs, etc. that you see a some Ivies.
My D has not yet attended, so no direct experience, but it was a simpler decision for her as she really liked W&M and was lukewarm on the Ivy.
Not sure what sport your D plays, but for mine Ivies are on basically the same timelines as everyone else, so if they haven’t made an offer I don’t think they are waiting for the pre-read unless they have a specific concern about that or athletic ability.
My only advice, FWIW, is that you should get the Ivy to tell you where your D stands on their recruiting list, how many offers/accepts they have out, and how large their class is and make your decision from there. They should be able to tell you that and if they are not willing then I think that tells you all you need to know.
Thanks everyone - all of the schools she is looking at have great tings to recommend them so I think it likely comes down to personal preference and perhaps where she gets in. And maybe it won’t be any of the schools she is considering now. It may be a Pollyanna moment but in the end I have faith that it will all work out. It’s great to hear from others who have had similar experiences and looks like in the end people made the right decision or they took the only option and still ended up at a great place. She is a hard worker and I think she will get a great education anywhere.
@BobcatPhoenix - she actually really liked facilities at both schools - congrats on WM! I loved the campus and school - I would have loved it as an undergrad. I do wish the ivies were on the same timeline - I think this ‘early recruiting’ puts pressure on the kids for a really sustained period of time.
@Flinnt12, thanks! To answer your question specifically, obviously we didn’t feel like the Ivy experience was worth $25-30,000 more per year for what amounted to a better branded school. YMMV.
As my D said when the news went public at her HS: “Some kids in my classes didn’t know about W&M, but all the smart kids knew about it.”
I have heard about parents spending another $30,000 for their child at an Ivy to belong to a specific eating or social club. Is that a relevant calculation here (or for anyone contemplating any Ivy)?