Ivy Leaguers' Big Edge: Starting Pay

Parents Forum
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<p>I think that's another myth. My brother went to a state U rather than an Ivy and kicked butt on the MCAT over most Ivy grads (and landed his number one pick for med school as well as for his neurosurgery residency at a hospital that only took one such resident each year). He found the work at his undergraduate school plenty intense. My son attended a state U that had more freshman in Harvard Medical School the fall he took pre-med bio than did any other school other than Harvard itself (as the school trained it's students well enough for them to do well on MCATs, gave them research opportunities, etc. - people came to this third tier U from Hopkins for their pre-med classes). The year our son graduated from his alma mater, two fellow graduates were admitted to Harvard's fully funded Ph.D./M.D. program, a program that only admits 12 students each year, and one of those who was admitted was only 19 years of age </p>

<p>My son also had a classmate in a CS course who was breezing through CS at a "top" school (one even known for being top in CS, I think) until his parents could no longer afford the tuition and the guy had to move back to the state U, where he tried quite hard, and yet flunked his CS course (only 35 of over 160 students pulled a C or higher in the class, so it's not THAT surprising that he didn't pass really, but it was interesting how he found this state U to be FAR tougher than his top ranked school). Our son also has a friend (entering Harvard Law School this fall) who got his physics engineering degree from Berkeley and felt our son's assignments in science courses were far tougher (at least in amount) than his own (our son's U used the same textbooks, but required 12 to 20 problems in each weekly problem set, which the Berkeley friend only had to do 4 or so problems and not every week, but more like once every 2 to 4 weeks). and our son had 20 to 50 physics lab reports <em>weekly</em> where the Berkeley student only had short lab reports and again, once a month rather than weekly (and that <em>really</em> surprised me).</p>

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<p>With the exception of Harvard and a few others perhaps, I agree. But again, if you want to look at income years out, I am pretty sure you'll see Harvard Med School graduates make more on average than graduates from any other med school (matching fields of medicine; a neurosurgeon from a lower ranked medical school will likely still make more than a pediatrician from Harvard).</p>

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<p>Unless the student is applying not just for the MD, but for the PhD/MD - then, <em>if</em> it was true that a top school would give you an edge (or a state school would, whichever is true), it would make sense to attend the college that will enable you to land the M.D./Ph.D. spot.</p>

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<p>Only MIT and Stanford are NOT Ivy colleges. They are <em>top</em> colleges.</p>

<p>Another thing is the top school degree can have some companies feeling you are over-qualified and not want you (either for fear of how much money you'd want, not fitting in with the "lesser" degree folks, whatever).</p>

<p>As for top companies only coming to the big name schools, again, wrong. Our son's alma was ranked third tier and on the opposite coast from Google and yet Google employees <em>regularly</em> came to campus to recruit, treating students to meals, t-shirts, pens, and all sorts of other stuff. They did want a certain GPA <em>from any school</em> (think it was 3.8, but am not positive; it was the highest of any company I've ever heard, I know) and our son knew people who went from his alma mater for work for them. IBM pulled our son's resume from the career center and asked him to come for an interview and started the conversation with, "I can tell you right now that you are over-qualified for every position I have open, but there is a higher up department that I could put you in touch with if you want to work for IBM. Meanwhile, I just really wanted to meet the person behind this resume."</p>

<p>To which our son said, "Well, to be honest, that's fine, as I have no plan to work for IBM and was just coming here to get interview experience, so you don't need to forward my resume onto anyone as I plan to work as a consultant for a year between college and graduate school anyway. Neither of us had the typical interview goals, so what would you like to know?"</p>

<p>When the interviewer learned our son was only 13, she nearly went into shock, as I recall our son telling the story.</p>

<p>Anyway, top companies do come to that third tier U (I saw a listing of how many companies come to various campuses to recruit and was astounded at the high number for that no name U; their career development office has to be doing something right) and I suspect they also come to others for whatever reasons.</p>

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<p>Wall Street recruits at MIT perhaps more than any other place. A gal I first met when she was 6 graduated from MIT with a mechanical engineering degree and went straight to Wall Street (Goldman Sachs - they are a big recruiter at MIT as they feel MIT students analyze data well). Her parents sent a holiday newsletter with color photos of the girl's views from her office and her apartment (one was of the Statue of Liberty and the other of Times Square....such a brutal way to live) and I heard she got a bonus in the $200,000's a few months ago (on top of whatever high base salary they are paying her). Now I grant she has more going for her than her MIT degree (she is a good jazz musician, has a great personality, and is ranked as the "hottest" gal of my son's facebook friends circle of about 500 friends, and it no doubt helps her to score well since she has facebook friends numbering over 1000), but I suspect GS hired her <em>mostly</em> for that MIT degree as they come to MIT to recruit lots of people.</p>

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<p>Miami, are you aware of how many students enter college as premed and never go on to take the MCAT (let alone apply)? I would not be picking a college based on going to med school unless the kid is 110% sure that they want to be a doctor. If a kid goes to, let's say, Duke then they will have top premed advising. They will also have a big infrastructure for going into banking, consulting, and other lucrative fields upon graduation if the whole med school thing doesn't work out. Part of the reason kids go this route is not because they are souless or anything, but if you have loans and don't really care what you do for a living, might as well earn 75k on wall street instead of 35k as a teacher.</p>

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There are pre-med advisors at public schools, at least at the one my D. is in. And, yes, it is a great help! In addition, in regard to Med. carrier, if you are in combined program, there is another layer of advisors and people who closely monitor your progress with one on one progress feedbacks and special connections to Med. organisations. Ivy school caliber might be better off at programs like this if they are planning to go to Medicine.

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It's great that your daughter is at a school with good premed advisors! There are private/Ivy schools where the advising is not worth 45k a year. About the combined med program thing, it's a tough debate on whether a student is better off at a 6 year accelerated program (2 year undergrad) or going the traditional route. If one is 1000000% sure that they want to be a doctor, it works out. If not, why be stuck at a school you dislike for 6 years (or up to 8) getting a degree you might not want, and if it is OOS, you're still paying 45k a year.</p>

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The few elite engineering schools produce nowhere near enough graduates to even come close to filling the high end engineering jobs in the country. This is very different than the IVY/Wall street connection.

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<p>Nobody disputes that you can be hired by Google or Facebook if you didn't go to MIT or Stanford, it is just that MIT and Stanford grads have a much higher likelihood of landing the best engineering jobs, hence the higher average salaries. </p>

<p>Even on Wall Street, the Ivy League is far from having a monopoly on the best jobs. Many of highest paying postions in investment banking, venture capital or management consulting require an MBA anyway and are not open to undergrads straight out of college.</p>

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<p>This is really not so complicated. Folks who come from families with higher incomes end up in higher paying jobs. At Yale, the median family income is somewhat north of $250k. At my flagship state university, it is around $75k. Guess who ends up with higher average incomes?</p>

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<p>mini, what about a kid from $75K income family goes to Yale. Will the kid make more $$ than those other $75K kids who go to state U, on average?</p>

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<p>"About the combined med program thing, it's a tough debate on whether a student is better off at a 6 year accelerated program (2 year undergrad) or going the traditional route. If one is 1000000% sure that they want to be a doctor, it works out. If not, why be stuck at a school you dislike for 6 years (or up to 8) getting a degree you might not want, and if it is OOS, you're still paying 45k a year."</p>

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<li>There are plenty of non-accelerated programs, and one does not have to be stuck there either. My D is in a program that do not allow to accelerate in undergrad - have to be there for 4 or 5 (engineering major) years. She is planning to apply out if her MCAT will be sufficient and still will retain her spot in Med. School in her program as long as her GPA=3.45 and MCAT=27. I do not think she would have a lot of chances getting accepted to Med. School with stats like this, if she was not in a program. We are paying total $6,500 / year. And she absolutely loves her state college and having tons of great experiences there including being with very elite Ivy caliber students, since her program is very selective. I do not even mention about all advising and other opportunities in program like this. I do not see anything wrong with this picture. Do you?</li>
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<p>What I found interesting--and strengthens the "cost of living" influence on these numbers--was that the Cal State schools were competitive with the Big Ten schools for initial salaries. Now, two things come to mind. </p>

<p>First, nobody compares the education or "prestige" of a Cal State campus (except perhaps San Louis Obispo) to the Big Ten schools. </p>

<p>Second, most Cal State grads take jobs in the very high cost of living state of California; whereas most Big Ten schools grads scatter around the country with a significant portion remaining in their relatively affordable home states or Chicago (relatively affordable vis-a-vis LA or SF).</p>

<p>My point is that I wonder how Cal State salaries match up against the salaries of those Big Ten grads who take their initial jobs in California. I'm guessing that one would see a gap that's not present in the macro numbers.</p>

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<p>"mini, what about a kid from $75K income family goes to Yale. Will the kid make more $$ than those other $75K kids who go to state U, on average?"</p>

<p>No one knows. (it is always conveniently left out of the equation). But note: statistically, there just aren't that many $75k kids who go to Yale.</p>

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<p>Alumni connections are very important, and are often what provide great internships for Ivy students, that in turn lead to super jobs at graduation. It doesn't matter to what cause you attribute the initial prestige of Ivy grads from years ago (ie. family money and social connections, for example), that benefit is self-perpetuatinng. That's why as only a sophomore, my very middle class S with no family connections has already had a corporate internship on Wall Street. Meanwhile, his public univ. friends are still working as camp counselors, waitresses, and life guards. The company he worked for primarily recruits at the Ivies. S only met one intern who was not an Ivy grad, and although he had already graduated from the state univ., he was performing the same job the Ivy kids were doing as only sophomores.</p>

<p>People can criticize the Ivies all they want, but these schools know what they're doing. Yes, they are working with great material. Most students can't get admitted to an Ivy even if they wanted to, so this study is informative for the kid like my S who could have gone to the state univ. for free or to an Ivy paying thousands. I'm seeing that we made the right decision.</p>

<p>PS--It's not like you have to sell your soul when you attend an Ivy. I get the impression people delude themselves into thinking that going to the state univ. is somehow noble and unassuming, whereas those who choose and Ivy are overly ambitious and mercenary. That's bull.</p>

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I do not see anything wrong with this picture. Do you?

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I don't see anything wrong with that picture either. However, when I was looking for med programs I saw a mix between 6 year programs like at Penn State, and 8 year ones where a kid needed to maintain above a 3.8 GPA and 36 MCAT, like WashU. Maybe I just wasn't looking in the right places. Luckily for me, after a year of college I've decided not to be a doctor, so maybe it all worked out for the best.</p>

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mini, what about a kid from $75K income family goes to Yale. Will the kid make more $$ than those other $75K kids who go to state U, on average?

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There are so many state schools in so many areas of the country and kids can major in so many random fields, that there are too many variables to really say where one would be better off. I personally think that one would be better off at a place like Yale if s/he can use the connections and resources to the max. However, if you have a student who will not socialize with rich connected kids, will not go to career services trying to get that great internship, and does not use other advising resources, I really don't think that s/he would be much better off at Yale compared to paying half as much to atted StateU.</p>

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<p>^ Kids in my Ds program are all different majors: Latin, Music - in extremely competitive conservatory of music (we were told it is #2 in a country, but I do not know), Engineering..... , and most kids in Zoology / Biochemistry have minors, including my D. Switching majors/minors and still being in a program is common. </p>

<p>Reading thru this thread, it looks like Ivy's are worthwhile for some majors and for very rich and/or need based Scholarship recipients and might not be so valuable for others a lot of whom simply cannot afford it. There is no way, I would be able to pay $45,000/year for Duke and tell my D after that I am not helping her thru Med. school, that is not my type of scenario, but could work very well for other family.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry, I'm looking at this data and I'm just not seeing the big Ivy advantage in "starting pay" that everyone's talking about. The highest starting salaries are in the engineering-heavy schools: Caltech 75,500, MIT 72,200, Harvey Mudd 71,800, Stanford 70,400. Yes, Princeton (66,500) and Harvard (63,400) are a little above the norm for other top schools, but most of the Ivies---Penn (60,900), Cornell (60,300), Columbia (59,400), Yale (59,100), Dartmouth (58,000), and Brown (56,200)---are roughly in the same range as the top public, UC Berkeley (59,900), and only a little ahead of other leading publics like Michigan (52,700), UVA (52,700), and UCLA (52,600), or non-Ivy privates like Duke (58,900), Notre Dame (56,300), or Georgetown (55,000). Controlling for cost-of-living in the regions where most of these schools' graduates end up would probably erase any Ivy advantage in "starting pay", except perhaps for Princeton and Harvard.</p>

<p>The big difference comes not in starting pay, but in mid-career salaries which are definitely higher for some of the Ivies. Dartmouth, Princeton, Yale, Harvard, and Penn are all in the top 10 (along with Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and Notre Dame), and all the Ivies are in the top 25---though that still means more than 2/3 of the top 25 are non-Ivy schools. (Actually a bit more, as there are 4 schools tied with Columbia for #24 at 107,000, so you might say there are 27 schools in the top 25, of which 19 are non-Ivies).</p>

<p>But I take all this with a huge grain of salt. This isn't a scientific "study"; it's a report of data collected from a small fraction of each school's graduates who happened to find their way to a particular job-search website, and who voluntarily self-reported their incomes in registering to use the site. The data is therefore highly suspect. Dartmouth's reported mid-career income of $134,000, for example, could be skewed by a few formerly highly-paid, now laid-off hedge fund managers finding their way to the site in search of employment, and telling their similarly situated friends in the Dartmouth alumni network about it. Hardly a random sample. Garbage in, garbage out. I think people on CC are taking this way too seriously.</p>

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<p>No the difference is because at the initial levels there is very little difference in pay for different jobs. An engineer might make 75K, while a banker might make 70K plus bonus. But 15 years out the engineer is probably making 100K while the banker is making 500K-$1Mplus depending on what path he takes. The second career path is really only available to students at the top 15 or so schools.</p>

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<p>So Ivy kids make more? Wow. Of course they do! This is a group of highly ambitious, smart and capable kids, many from families with money. So, the natural (but faulty) assumption is, for those who have a choice, going to the Ivy is the only sure path to big-time money. Bull. Great data though for those parents who are shelling out 200K per year over 4 years.
So what do you think I would find if I looked at the pay of honors college kids at good state schools - like UT, PSU or even better UMich? These are top kids so yeah, I think we'll find top salaries there too.
I'm not knocking those parents and kids who make the Ivy choice. Hey, why not if you can get in and can afford it? But let's not delude ourselves that this is this is the ONLY or even BEST ticket into the magic kingdom of top level careers and money. Again, I say...BULL.</p>

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<p>The best ticket to a career as an I-banker is to have a father who owns an I-bank.</p>

<p>I don't mean that to be flippant. If you look at the careers of the fathers of Yale grads who don't go on to med school, law school, business school, or grad school, I think you'll quickly find out why average salaries are higher.</p>

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<p>Mini, you are wrong and I am not aware of any study which backs up your assertion. You are living in the 1950's when the "gentleman C" student who couldn't get into med school or law school ended up "doing investments" and eating lunch with clients at the Metroplitan club.</p>

<p>The current crop of I-bank hires (and this was a tough year, next year will be tougher) is a more non-white, wooden spoon vs. silver spoon, group of hires than most people who recruit for a living have ever seen. Top banks screen on the basis of college gpa, sat scores, leadership roles on campus, etc. They don't care who your father is if you are an applied math major with solid communication skills.</p>

<p>The best ticket to a career as an I-banker is to be really good in math, work hard and get top grades, perform well in something non-academic (Editor of the YDN, campus-wide coordinator of Habitat for Humanity, chair of a micro-credit organization giving loans to women in Guatemala to buy cows...) and show up for an interview. You can be a Carnegie or a Rockefeller but if you have a C average and spend your free time on the beach don't bother submitting a resume.</p>

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<p>Mini - with all due respect I think you have a very flawed view of prestigious schools.</p>

<p>No one's father owns an I-bank - banks and elite consulting firms have incredibly set recruiting. And a great great majority of it happens at the top 15 or so schools. Kids at Ivies are exposed to career paths that are far more lucrative, and the doors are much bigger. Personally I feel as if the reputation and network associated with my degree has been a huge asset years after graduation. You are exposed to a very different mindset and your peers are constantly pushing you and making you aware of opportunities. And some of my most successful friends came from the poorest backgrounds or were international kids with no previous networks. These are meritocracies.</p>

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<p>"Mini, you are wrong and I am not aware of any study which backs up your assertion. You are living in the 1950's when the "gentleman C" student who couldn't get into med school or law school ended up "doing investments" and eating lunch with clients at the Metroplitan club."</p>

<p>You can do the numbers yourself. Look at the median income of Yale students' fathers, then look at the average income of the non-graduate/professional school-bound grads. The numbers don't lie.</p>