Ivy Leagues, Fame and Success

College Search & Selection
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<p>(I also posted this in the "Cafe" forum, but didn't get much response.)</p>

<p>It seems that everywhere I turn, in the public spotlight there are Ivy League graduates as the pinnacles of “success” in all trends of life. For example, I’m reading the Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson (the author is a Harvard alumnus). I recently saw the film Black Swan directed by Darren Aronofsky—another Harvard alumnus. Conan O’Brien, Matt Damon, Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg all attended Harvard. Even outside of the “public eye” the trend is apparent—Tim Carvell, lead writer on The Daily Show, is a Columbia grad. And when I examine the CVs of my Professors (at my state flagship) most of them attended Ivy League, or peer schools (Top LACs, UChicago, Northwestern, Stanford, WashU, etc.).</p>

<p>Looking at this is admittedly a bit frightening, maybe it’s a case of only seeing what I want to see; but it’s scary as a future public university grad that my future seems so mundane and boring, compared to these famous people. I’m not really worried that my education is sub-par to these institutions, but it does seem like the connections they make with the hard-working innovators, and the “elites” of society, seem to give them a leg up. I'd like to write someday, maybe for television, perhaps in the comedy world--but it seems like many of these people went to Harvard and wrote for the "Harvard Lampoon," and I worry perhaps this is a matter of connections more than talent.</p>

<p>Again, I'm not dissatisfied with the quality of my education, (although, admittedly, quite frequently with the motivation of my peers) but it does seem like there are a disproportionate amount of Ivy League grads in the public eye achieving “success,” compared to those who attend less prestigious schools.</p>

<p>I mean, I know an Ivy League ticket isn’t a ticket to success, but sometimes it appears that way. Is there any truth to that? I've been looking at transferring to one of these "elite schools" not primarily for this reason (more for an academic challenge)--but if it helps me build those connections, well maybe that's worth the cost.</p>

2

<p>

Even Conan O’Brien, a graduate of Harvard, admitted that no one in the comedy world cared about his degree (and, as he mentions, his senior thesis). And why would they? Having a degree from Harvard does not make you a funny person. (In fact, it might make you less than funny, but I digress).
You should see this (even though it’s humorous): [Conan</a> O’Brien’s Speech to the Harvard Class of 2000.(Pt 1 of 2) - YouTube](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cFY0-IFcwc]Conan”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cFY0-IFcwc)
What the heck are connections going to do for you if you want to me a comedy writer? Your connections do not make you a funny person. Your connections do not help you need to sit down and write a few canned jokes for whoever you’re working for.</p>

<p>

And why shouldn’t there be? By SOLE virtue of their selectivity, Ivy League students are more prone for success - this has very little to do with their education, but has everything to do with the fact that only people who are already successful (in high school) get in.</p>

<p>I’d understand if you wanted to transfer because you wanted a career in investment banking or something, where connections DO matter to a certain degree. But a writer is not going to benefit as much from those connections, if at all.</p>

<p>

In this example, the Harvard grad in this example is writing a book extolling the genius of the guy who dropped out from Reed College after 6 months. I hope you see the irony.</p>

<p>Heck, had I decided to become a writer as a career, I would have attended a nice LAC.</p>

3

<p>Can’t say I disagree about the humor aspect–but still I maintain that there seem to be a high degree of comedy writers (and writers in general) who received degrees from Ivy League schools. But then again, maybe once again that’s the point–people with talent are those that schools are going to be more likely to seek out.</p>

<p>And sure–by their sole virtue of selectivity that should imply their graduates will be successful. However, people often talk about how a majority of the students applying to schools in this tier are often qualified, but there’s a limited number of spots and sometimes that makes things a “crapshoot” in the admissions process, and maybe if I DID want to get into investment banking, it seems somewhat unfair that I might be denied to a school that would confer these connections on the basis of dumb luck.</p>

<p>And yes, haha, I did realize the irony in my example. Especially, in regards to Steve Jobs is much more of a household name than Walter Isaacson (despite being CEO of CNN, and in a senior position at TIME magazine). However, why is it that Isaacson of all people is the author of this book? Surely if I were to check out something else on the best seller list, for example “The Amateur” by Edward Klein (current #1 on NYT Non-fiction) odds are given the number of universities in the United States, the author would not be an Ivy League grad–yet lo and behold, a graduate of Columbia University. Once again, perhaps another scenario of success → prestigious college, rather than the reverse, but then why all the stress about getting into a great college nowadays, if success if primarily intrinsic instead of extrinstic?</p>

<p>To finalize, yeah. An LAC would have been nice (still may be)–the problem is primarily due to the high costs of these sorts of schools. It’s very difficult to justify to my family (as well as myself) the cost of an education (see college loan debt) that costs significantly more than one that can be offered at my public university.</p>

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<p>All of the Ivies (and a handful of other very selective schools) can boast of many alumni who are highly successful in various walks of life. Example: [List</a> of Harvard University people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Harvard_University_people]List”>List of Harvard University people - Wikipedia) . No other university has a distinguished-alumni Wiki page as extensive as Harvard’s. Only about 20 or so even come close.</p>

<p>However, nobody really knows for sure how much the “elite” education, per se, contributes to this success. Social scientists distinguish between *selection effects * and *treatment effects *. We don’t really know for sure if there is something about attending an Ivy that makes people more likely to succeed, or if these schools are simply cherry-picking students who are likely to succeed regardless ([gladwell</a> dot com - getting in](<a href=“http://www.gladwell.com/2005/2005_10_10_a_admissions.html]gladwell”>http://www.gladwell.com/2005/2005_10_10_a_admissions.html)).</p>

<p>Stacy Dale and Alan Krueger have found that, after adjusting for the qualifications of admitted students, “[the financial] return to college selectivity … are generally indistinguishable from zero.” In other words, financially successful Ivy graduates in all likelihood would have been financially successful even if they had attended other, less selective schools. ([Revisiting</a> the Value of Elite Colleges - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-value-of-elite-colleges/]Revisiting”>Revisiting the Value of Elite Colleges - The New York Times))</p>

<p>As for your chances of becoming famous, I don’t know. Maybe attending an Ivy does improve your odds, just by virtue of being around many talented, well-connected people. </p>

<p>At any rate, none of the Ivies (or other “elite” schools) make it their express purpose to produce rich, famous, or funny people. If they are turning out more of these folks, that would be a collateral effect. Their real mission (I think) is to produce knowledgable, liberally educated people. Whether they do that better than other schools has not (as far as I know) been very well tested.</p>

5

<p>One of the most respected comedy publications “The Onion” started out at UW Madison by undergrads there. Many of their writers still come from UW and Harvard. Some of the most successful comedy films as well as others were written and directed by another team of UW grads-Zucker Bros and Jim Abrahams. They also made “Ghost” which made a fortune. The TV comedy hit “Modern Family” is produced by UW alum Steve Levitan. The creative producer for The Daily Show with Jon Stewart was Ben Karlin–UW grad and Onion alumnus.</p>

<p>The Zuckers/Abrahams also created Kentucky Fried Theater which was virtually copied to become Saturday Night Live. </p>

<p>There are many many others including a pile of Pulitzer prize winners including the late Anthony Shadid of the NYT and David Maraniss who just published a major book on Obama.</p>

<p>[David</a> Maraniss Obama Biography Questions Accuracy Of President’s Memoir](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>David Maraniss Obama Biography Questions Accuracy Of President's Memoir | HuffPost Latest News)</p>

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<p>Well, it looks like your mind was already made up before you even asked the question. Why did you even bother?</p>

<p>

Walter Isaacson is most certainly NOT the CEO of CNN. For starters, CNN is not even a company - it’s a channel, which is owned by a larger company.</p>

<p>Again, you seem to want to convince yourself that Ivy League schools are superior in every way. Fine. Nobody’s stopping you.</p>

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<p>Ah, sorry if it came across that way, that wasn’t the intention. Once again, I feel like you can get a quality education almost anywhere. Selectivity does not equate to a better education. However, I’m just trying to account for the long list of accomplished alumni from Harvard as opposed to say Iowa State.</p>

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<p>Whoops, reasons not to trust Wikipedia. Sorry.</p>

<p>@tk–thanks for the articles. interesting reads-esp. that gladwell one.</p>

8

<p>Yes, it is your perception. Ivy Leagues are great but not the end all and be all of education.</p>

<p>You said, “For example, I’m reading the Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson (the author is a Harvard alumnus).”</p>

<p>I am surprised that more folks did not comment on this one. Steve Jobs, the most important figure in this statement, was a non-Ivy League drop out that never even finished college. It was the biographer that was the Harvard grad.</p>

<p>Anyway, many, many entertainers, comedians, and writers never went to college. A successful entertainer that went on to be a US president, Ronald Regan, went to Eureka College.</p>

<p>Here is a very insightful link: <a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidents_by_college_education[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidents_by_college_education&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Yes, several US president’s went to Ivy Leagues. But a lot did not! More than a few went to good old regular colleges.</p>

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<p>Let’s be honest. Not every president has been good, and some very likely got into the Ivies solely because of family connections. Not every CEO is honorable and ethical. And plenty of writers or directors with elite-college credentials have written bad books or produced awful movies (Black Swan…really??).</p>

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<p>No doubt many Ivy grads are successful in many fields, but your noticing them may be partly a reflection of your own fixation on Ivy League schools. Truth is, most successful people are not Ivy grads. They come from many educational backgrounds. Here, for example, are the winners of the Pulitzer Prize in Fiction in the last 20 years and their undergrad alma maters:</p>

<p>1992: Jane Smiley, Vassar
1993: Robert Olen Butler, Northwestern
1994: Annie Proulx, University of Vermont
1995: Carol Shields, Hanover College (IN)
1996: Richard Ford, Michigan State
1997: Steven Millhauser, Columbia
1998: Philip Roth, Bucknell
1999: Michael Cunningham, Stanford
2000: Jhumpa Lahiri, Barnard
2001: Michael Chabon, Pitt
2002: Richard Russo, Arizona
2003: Jeffrey Eugenides, Brown
2004: Edward P. Jones, Holy Cross
2005: Marilynne Robinson, Pembroke
2006: Geraldine Brooks, U of Sydney (Australia)
2007: Cormac McCarthy, U Tennessee dropout
2008: Junot Diaz, Rutgers
2009: Elizabeth Strout, Bates
2010: Paul Harding, U Mass-Amherst
2011: Jennifer Egan, Penn
2012: no award</p>

<p>So, one Brown, one Penn, and one Columbia, not bad for the Ivies; plus one from Pembroke which was the women’s college affiliated with Brown when Brown was all-male, though it’s not clear you can count that as an Ivy, exactly. But there are actually more from LACs (6, not including Pembroke) and public universities (7) than from Ivies. You could look at that list and say, “Wow, the Ivies are really overrepresented with 3 out of 20.” Or you could look at that list and say, “Gee, critically acclaimed fiction writers really come from everywhere, but more from public universities and LACs than anywhere else.” It’s partly in the eye of the beholder.</p>

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<p>If you are so confident in your own potential, and your beliefs have merit, you’ll have no trouble gaining admission to an elite university.</p>

12

<p>Here are the alma maters of some comedians and comic actors considered by many to be among the best of all time:</p>

<ol>
<li> Lenny Bruce, no college</li>
<li> Richard Pryor, no college</li>
<li> Woody Allen, NYU and CUNY dropout</li>
<li> Mort Sahl, USC</li>
<li> Buddy Hackett, no college</li>
<li> George Carlin, no college (but grew up near Columbia)</li>
<li> Eddie Murphy, no college</li>
<li> Richard Lewis, Ohio State</li>
<li> Robin Williams, Claremont Men’s College (now Claremont McKenna)</li>
<li>Rodney Dangerfield, no college</li>
<li>Jerry Seinfeld, CUNY Queens College</li>
<li>Albert Brooks, Carnegie Mellon dropout</li>
<li>Steve Martin, Cal State-Long Beach and UCLA dropout</li>
<li>Chris Rock, no college</li>
<li>David Brenner, Temple</li>
<li>Jonathan Winter, Kenyon</li>
<li>Dick Gregory, Southern Illinois dropout</li>
<li>Sam Kinison, Pinecrest Bible Training Center</li>
<li>Bill Cosby, Temple</li>
<li>Bob Newhart, Loyola (Chicago)</li>
<li>Sarah Silverman, NYU</li>
<li>Jackie Vernon, no college</li>
<li>Bob Hope, no college (reform school graduate)</li>
<li>Don Rickles, American Academy of Dramatic Arts, no degree</li>
<li>Shecky Greene, junior college dropout</li>
<li>Milton Berle, no college</li>
<li>Phyllis Diller, Bluffton College (OH)</li>
<li>Andy Kaufman, Grahm Junior College</li>
<li>Redd Foxx, no college (HS dropout)</li>
<li>Jack Benny, no college</li>
<li>Jim Carrey, no college</li>
<li>Joan Rivers, Barnard</li>
<li>Professor Irwin Corey, no college</li>
<li>Billy Crystal, NYU</li>
<li>Shelley Berman, no college</li>
<li>Jon Stewart, William & Mary</li>
<li>Henny Youngman, no college</li>
<li>Andrew Dice Clay, no college</li>
<li>Elayne Boosler, no college</li>
<li>Johnny Carson, University of Nebraska</li>
<li>Jay Leno, Emerson</li>
<li>David Letterman, Ball State (IN)</li>
<li>Bill Maher, Cornell</li>
<li>Freddie Prinze, no college (HS dropout)</li>
<li>Steven Wright, Emerson</li>
<li>Roseanna Barr, no college</li>
<li>Alan King, no college</li>
<li>Robert Klein, Alfred University</li>
<li>Dennis Miller, Point Park University ¶</li>
<li>Jackie Gleason, no college (HS dropout)</li>
<li>Lily Tomlin, Wayne State (MI)</li>
<li>Groucho Marx, no college (middle school dropout)</li>
<li>Mel Brooks, CUNY Brooklyn College dropout</li>
<li>Jerry Lewis, no college</li>
<li>Adam Sandler, NYU</li>
<li>Paula Poundstone, no college (HS dropout)</li>
<li>Lewis Black, UNC Chapel Hill</li>
<li>Gilda Radner, Michigan dropout</li>
<li>John Belushi, U Wisconsin-Whitewater and College of DuPage (IL) dropout</li>
<li>Dan Aykroyd, Carleton University (Ontario) dropout </li>
<li>Bill Murray, Regis University (CO) dropout</li>
<li>Chevy Chase, Bard</li>
</ol>

<p>And a few others, currently popular:</p>

<ol>
<li> Steve Carell, Denison</li>
<li> Tina Fey, UVA</li>
<li> Amy Poehler, Boston College</li>
<li> Stephen Colbert, Northwestern</li>
</ol>

<p>The pattern is pretty clear: many of the truly funny people don’t need college, and there’s certainly no overrepresentation of Ivy League colleges, or elite colleges generally, in this group. </p>

<p>There are many good reasons to attend an Ivy or another top college. Getting into comedy isn’t one of them.</p>