Hi all! First post here but have been reading posts at CC for quite awhile now. I especially find posts from @varska and @Ohiodad51 very helpful. I was hoping to send you both a PM but since I’m new, I think CC requires that you have 15 posts before that feature is activated.
We need expert parent advice from the community as we are trying to guide our D to make the right decisions. D is currently looking at Ivy and a a highly-academic ranked D3. D3 coach offered her a spot on the team and has done an early read and all looks good. D3 coach advises D to apply EA which she can turn to ED.
D has also been in touch with Ivy coach (prior to offer) but we didn’t think she’s at the top of their recruitment list. Ivy coach tells D that they will send letter of rec to admissions , basically saying, that if she gets in, she is on the team. This to us looks like she’s a walk-on, right?
Recently, Ivy coach calls and invites D for an OV and tells D if she does the OV, she has to apply EA. Coach was clear and honest though that there will be no pre-reads, no guarantee, and can’t confirm if letter is tipping point for others who were accepted. Ivy coach also warned D to be clear with D3 coach, so she doesn’t end up losing both. Both coaches knew about D.
So, my questions are, 1.) how do we advise D to make the right decision? Is D making a huge gamble by going through the OV and applying EA? 2.) How much weight does a letter of rec carry? She has very strong academically, good SATs, but she’s no genius. 3.) Do walk-ons get invited to do OVs at Ivys? 4.) Is it brazen to ask D3 coach to support her app for EDII if things don’t pan out with Ivy EA?
Your insight/wisdom/parental experiences would be so helpful! Thank you.
The coach spelled out that it is a gamble. "He was clear and honest that there will be no pre-reads, no guarantee, and can’t confirm if letter is tipping point for others who were accepted. " She’s on her own for admissions. Risk.
The coach said he can’t confirm if the letter helps. HE doesn’t know, so how can anyone else?
Athletes get invited to OVs. All those athletes do not get Likely letters or any form of help in admissions. If they then get admitted to the school, they are walk-ons. Technically, all Ivy athletes are walk ons because they receive no athletic aid, which is what makes recruits recruits at other D1 schools, and they are free to play or not play, or to transfer to other schools.
No. Ask. ED2 was originally used mostly by athletes who didn’t get into the ED1 school. Don’t expect the D3 coach to hold a spot for you, but if there is one available the coach will most likely support your daughter (although see @OldbatesieDoc 's recent posts about a D3 coach who wouldn’t let daughter play even if she was accepted; bad recruiting experience).
Life is risky. Your daughter might want to take the risk of the Ivy and miss the opportunity at the D3. Only she can decide if it is worth the risk.
Correct. The amount of support a coach can offer an recruit without a likely letter may depend on which Ivy and which sport, but in general, IMO, the weight is somewhere between none and a feather on the scale.
This worries me. I can see if the Ivy coach asking for an EA/ED application in exchange for a Likely Letter; in fact, that’s normal. It would give me pause to send in an EA application in exchange for nothing (well, a note to attach to the file; same thing in my book).
Without knowing the schools/coaches/sports involved, the answers are going to be general.So in general, I’m having trouble understanding why DD would turn down a spot on a D3 team unless the school is not what she’s looking for. Maybe she’ll get into the Ivy, maybe she won’t. But it won’t be as a result of the coach’s actions, IMO.
You really have to take a cold hard look at her likelihood of admission to either of the schools without an athletic hook. You have to assume that it, unless she has something unique that hasn’t been stated here, her chance of admission to the Ivy is pretty slim and somewhere south of ten percent - like most applicants. The feather on the scale offered by the coach is going to be a tiny boost. What do you think about her chances at the D3? Is she a likely admit without her sport? Have you checked her school’s Naviance to see where she sits?
If she has an excellent shot at the D3 academically, then it makes sense to go for the Ivy and apply to the D3 if she’s turned down. If she’s an Ivy level athlete, then she’s probably a top D3 and will play there even if she’s technically not recruited.
My understanding is that the highly-academic ranked D3 school is a much more likely admit & play option than the Ivy.
Does your daughter want to attend & play for the D3 ? If so, then why consider risking that opportunity for a shot at an Ivy ? (It would help to know the schools in question, but I understand why that should be kept confidential for now.)
Because she is debating, I suspect that the D3 is not an enthusiastic “first choice” school.
If the choices are Smith College versus Harvard or Princeton than the decision might be easier than if Williams College versus an Ivy.
You are getting good advice here. SOME Ivy coaches say their letter helps, and SOME people believe that and others think they are just blowing smoke. Your coach isn’t even offering that. I would take the non-answer as a no.
Personally I think it’s a huge risk. I don’t know the schools involved, and I don’t know your daughter, so maybe it’s worth it. But I don’t think it would be to me. Even if we are talking HPY vs Trinity/Tufts/Connecticut, are you willing to take a semiguaranteed spot for a 10% chance? If you are looking at a different Ivy or a different NESCAC, then that changes it even more.
My answers:
Huge risk, for probably minimal reward unless your D really likes the Ivy and doesn't like the NESCAC school. If that is the case, then drop the NESCAC school anyway, but it doesn't sound like that is the situation.
He isn't even trying to tell you it can help. I tend to think this helps more than some others do on CC, but in this case I would treat the letter as essentially worthless.
School has more OV's than slots. This probably means she will get a tryout for the team if she gets in on her own without coach help, nothing more.
Nothing wrong with this, but it assumes the spot is still open. Coaches try to fill teams in ED1. You are looking for the scraps at ED2. Even if she is a D3 superstar who will definitely take someone's spot, the coach may not have slots left.
Sidenote, I think it’s pretty brazen and uncouth for a coach to demand EA/ED application when he isn’t offering support. This would give me pause about the character of the coach. This person will have a huge impact on how happy/unhappy D will be for the next 4 years. Do you want someone who you can trust or someone who tells D to take a huge risk for his gain? If she doesn’t get in, no skin off his back. She is taking all the risk, and his gain is probably just a backup player anyway or there would be a real offer.
OP, when you say D3 coach offered daughter a spot on the team and did a pre read, I think most of us assume she has been told the coach will support her, and that this is a school where such support puts admission chances near 100%. If you’re talking about a school like MIT where support has uncertain results then you may get different advice. Having said that, I agree with the skepticism most have expressed toward the Ivy coach. If he knows your daughter has a solid offer and is pressuring her to apply EA with no assurances, or to commit to anything before an OV, I’d run the other direction. I don’t see harm in taking the OV (with no commitment on her part) if she’s uncertain about the D3 option though. That’d also give her a better sense of whether the risk is worth it. Plus she maight hate the Ivy.
Does your DD have a “hook”? 1st generation? Finances? Race? If not, I think it’s a giant risk to go for the Ivy. The D3 spot could very well evaporate . Pm me with the Ivy and the sport if you don’t want to post it.
hi everyone! Thankful and overwhelmed by the support and responses. This CC community really looks out for one another. Unfortunately, I don’t have the ability to PM each one of you as well. As much as I want to, CC will not allow me until I have 15 posts. If you have time, please send me a PM and I’ll give more details. It would be so appreciated as we try to help D make an informed decision. Thank you!
@LaPulga10, keep posting, pretty soon you will be PM eligible.
I always say, go back to the coach. You may get lucky and some one posting may have had the exact same experience, but the coach is going to give better and more accurate information. There are those that know the Ivies better than me, but I am a little surprised that you had to agree to apply early if you want the OV. In other words, no window shoppers. Yes, OVs do cost the school money, but I thought the point of the OV was to allow recruits take a look under the hood and decide if they like the school.
This leads me to believe that your D is fairly low on the list. Please, by all means, do not take this as gospel. Have your D specifically ask the coach where she is on the list. How many OVs? How many will you slot? What level of support after the slot? How many of them? How often do they get in? Where am I on the list. How many that far down (or far up) get into the school? With my grades and board scores, what are my chances of admission? Will I have a roster spot guaranteed? It sounds like the coach has been clear on the lack of pre-reads and guarantees, but hasn’t put specific numbers on your daughter’s position. Many coaches have good idea of how well the stats of a recruit will go over with admissions. Some athletic departments have admissions liaisons who know how things will go down. It would be helpful to know more specific information before going down one road to the exclusion of the other.
As far as ED2, it is a mixed bag. Sometimes the stars line up. It really depends. You can ask the NESCAC coach for support in ED2, but he or she may not have have support to give by that time. Alternatively, the coach may really need a certain position and can push through the support. On that point, I don’t think any coach would know exactly how things are going to shake out in ED2 at this point in the year. I’ll bet D3 coaches experience surprises both ways before application season. That can open or close things up.
You could tell the Ivy coach that you are very interested, but can’t commit this minute to apply early before seeing the school. Offer to visit the school on your dime and talk to the coach about exactly what he or she can offer. If that doesn’t work, I would say you have a lot of risk on your hands.
"There are those that know the Ivies better than me, but I am a little surprised that you had to agree to apply early if you want the OV. "
My son had this exact experience with Princeton. It’s a lot to ask of a student athlete to make that commitment and not see what other schools have offer. Personally think it’s kinda unprofessional but that’s me.
@tonymom, that is very interesting. I wonder if it is a numbers thing for the coach relative to the school. E.g., I have 15 OVs, I had better use them. I need to have a certain ratio of OVs to early applications. Good for the coach, perhaps. Maybe not for the student.
@tonymom Ivy league schools don’t send likely letters until the student has submitted an application.
@LaPulga10 You are getting good advice. I agree that the Ivy coach’s communications are worrisome, such as stating your D should only go on an OV if she agrees to apply EA (I assume SCEA). Students go on OVs specifically to see if schools/team/coaches are a good fit, and sometimes they aren’t. I would assume this coach’s mindset and behaviors carryover to his/her coaching. If things are difficult as a recruit, those difficulties might continue as a member of his/her team.
This is a very informative thread. I am not very familiar with athletic recruiting, but I will throw in my second-hand story, because it seems like a good cautionary tale.
A young man I know was “guaranteed” (according to the mom) a spot on a team at Columbia. He was 100% certain he was going to Columbia, so he withdrew his applications to his other schools. (Is this what athletes are supposed to do?) On Ivy Day, he was rejected. He went from being on the team, to nothing. In desperation, he went back to one of the “lower” NESCAC’s he had been recruited by and asked if they would allow him to resubmit his application. They admitted him, he is on the team, and is apparently quite happy there.
I also know a girl who is ranked highly in her sport, and really wanted to go to Dartmouth. She was told she could be on the team if she got at least a 27 on her ACT. She scored 28, and was then told they didn’t want her. At least they didn’t leave her dangling. She is now at a not-particularly prestigious state university in the northeast, where she will be competing regularly, because she is at the top of the heap at that college. That’s what she really wanted all along.
I guess it’s worth your daughter considering how much she will actually get to compete if she gets into either the Ivy or the D3 school. If she really wants to play, she should factor that into the decision.
@lindagaf Those are good cautionary tales. Students should definitely not withdraw other apps, nothing is 100% certain until admittance is in hand. In the Harvard/Asian student lawsuit, lots of interesting data has come out, including that recruited varsity athletes were accepted at 86% rate. That remaining 14% represents students who thought they were in. Assuming Harvard’s annual recruited athletes total 230-240, that’s around 32-34 students
I am really surprised by the OP and @tonymom saying the coach required a commitment to apply EA. I have never heard of that before and it seems to run contrary to how recruiting works generally. Quite honestly, if the coach won’t even go so far as offering an OV without significant conditions, I can’t imagine he would be willing to try very hard to get the recruit through admissions, even assuming you are someone who believes in some type of shadow support system in the Ivy. Personally, and as I have said many times, I do not believe in such a system, and I therefore think a letter of recommendation carries very little weight. So I think that is your answer.
That said, there is nothing at all wrong with going to the D3 coach and talking about ED2. Just recognize that if the D3 coach is open to ED2, and your daughter decides to take a flyer on the Ivy, she is not leaving herself a real solid back up plan. I would therefore want to know exactly what the D3 coach thought about her odds in ED2. While the best possible situation is having a shot at the Ivy EA and then a real solid back up in ED2, the nightmare is to miss on EA and then get dinged in ED2 because the recruit wasn’t quite as solid as assumed.
“D3 coach advises D to apply EA which she can turn to ED”
What does this mean?
“D has also been in touch with Ivy coach (prior to offer) but we didn’t think she’s at the top of their recruitment list. Ivy coach tells D that they will send letter of rec to admissions , basically saying, that if she gets in, she is on the team. This to us looks like she’s a walk-on, right?”
Why would a coach tell admissions that if she gets in she is on the team? Not sure admissions cares about walk-ons??
“Recently, Ivy coach calls and invites D for an OV and tells D if she does the OV, she has to apply EA”
Did she go on unofficial? They cannot invite for an OV without a pre-read… Sounds like they are asking for a commitment.
“Coach was clear and honest though that there will be no pre-reads, no guarantee, and can’t confirm if letter is tipping point for others who were accepted. Ivy coach also warned D to be clear with D3 coach, so she doesn’t end up losing both. Both coaches knew about D”.
This says everything to me–she is just too far down on the list.