Wannabe- Brown alumna here. I no longer interview although I did when I lived in an area where Brown was a less “popular” choice, and where the travel expenses to visit the campus were prohibitive for kids with high need.
If your D is interested in Brown, she needs to get her ducks in order. If she hasn’t visited campus- and you can (i.e. it’s an Amtrak ticket away) she needs to. She will present a much more compelling case for herself if she’s actually been there, knows the place a bit, can do a bang-up essay. If she can’t- she needs to go through the website very carefully.
She needs to do an interview with an alum if one is offered- the interviews are not meaningful for the typical candidate, but the admissions office really cares about making sure that low income/first gen kids get a fair shot, and having a local interview is a way to level the playing field. So in her case- it’s important. She needs to understand that all the “noise” about leadership, activities, rah-rah, community involvement, etc is great- but first and foremost, Brown is an educational institution with a mission of education and intellectual inquiry- so her “Why Brown” can’t be about the frozen yogurt on Thayer street (I’ve read that essay from one of my interviewees) or about the nice views from the Hill. She needs to communicate a thirst for learning and knowledge and “thread the needle” on why her HS has prepared her for a rigorous intellectual experience.
My biggest triumph as an interviewer was a first gen, low income kid whose personal story was incredibly compelling. Not to say that your D has to pull out the violins and kleenex on why her life has been so hard. But her best shot at Brown will be if her teachers consistently describe a kid who is animated and motivated by a love of learning; who takes every opportunity she can find and runs with it, and who has used her intellectual ability and other gifts to help her community in a meaningful way. Her teachers may need help with her recommendations if their typical letter reads. “Joanne is a diligent student who always does her work and hands it in on time. Plus she’s editor of the yearbook- how does she do it?”
I don’t know your D so I don’t know if she’s a credible candidate or not. But the clock is ticking- if she’s serious that Brown is her first choice, she ought to sit down with the teachers who she’s asking to write her recommendations and talk to them about why she wants to go there. Don’t just hand them a laundry list of her activities- that’s what gets a recommendation that makes the kid sound like a credible candidate for prom queen. Talk to her teachers about her love of learning, why the paper she wrote on the French Revolution was so much fun, how she wants to learn about the Napoleonic Wars from the perspective of both the French citizenry and the Russian peasants. Get a dialogue going with these teachers so they can write her the kind of recommendation which paints a picture.
YES, this is so true. Not just for Brown but for all highly selective schools IMO.
Some observations:
Some GCs are unfamiliar with admissions to highly selective colleges/universities and therefore try to discourage students because they don’t want them to be disappointed. You need to do your own research on this, as many GCs are over booked with students.
As for the OP mentioning her D would be uncomfortable because of the wealth on Ivy campuses: We are a living, breathing family that is not super wealthy and our D2 attends an Ivy. This has not affected her in the least and she is having a very full experience.
Admissions are holistic, but lots of kids have her Ds stats. She can try, (I don't think there is harm in doing so) but keep it all in perspective and make sure there are safeties on her list!
@consolation, my daughter also didn’t want an LAC or women’s college. She would rather attend a lesser ranked or less prestigious school than cram herself into an environment she didn’t want. Why do people accuse the OP’s daughter of chasing prestige for wanting to go to Brown, but think it’s a good idea to drop her idea of what she wants in a college so she can get into a “better” LAC or women’s college?
I respect kid’s perspective on the type of school they are looking for. Not interested in single sex, LAC, Midwest, whatever. BUT- and this is a huge but- it needs to be tempered with reality (the stats plus the finances) AND some knowledge about what they are rejecting.
I’ve seen kids categorically state that a U is “too big”- when the student body count includes three grad schools which are located on different campuses, i.e. you will never run into a law student, a med student, divinity student, etc. unless you want to. Kids categorically state that they don’t want a suburban campus- and reject places like BC which technically may be in Chestnut Hill (a suburb) but abuts Brighton which is significantly more urban than what most folks think as suburban- especially if they are thinking about a Dallas or Phoenix ex-urb or gated community.
So kids who have really explored what they are not interested- yup, I respect that. But don’t rule out Catholic, LAC, Women’s, rural, or whatever- especially if it opens the door to generous money for a kid who won’t be attending anything but a CC or local commutable directional- without understanding.
This really struck me. I think so many kids and parents only think about how they are within the context of their high school. And the GC’s have much more visibility into that than the student does. Students often don’t realize that they will be compared to an applicant pool from all over the country, and at the Ivies (no matter which Ivy), that pool will be incredibly strong, especially for EA/ED.
I have been watching the admissions from my son’s school over the past few years. He is at a private school. From what I have seen, the majority of kids getting into HYPSM in particular are from the top 5% of the class (it used to be 10%, but things have tightened in recent years), and they often (but not always) have a significant additional “wow” factor outside of school leadership, on a state, national, or international level. The kids who are not in the top 5% who get in often have a major hook (URM, athlete, legacy), are extremely strong candidates, typically top 10% of class with strong scores and ECs.
I am a believer in applying to the reach schools, no matter what the GC says. A student only applies to college once. But I am also a believer in a broad list, and a careful consideration of the ED or EA school. The “next tier down” is full of amazing schools, any of which would be lucky to have a student with the leadership and grades and scores that your daughter has on her resume. I would be interested to hear what other schools are on her list. Best of luck to your daughter.
In fact, we don’t know what schools the OP’s D is interested in, besides Brown. And in fact somewhere she said her D was interested in 2 Ivies. The only top need aware school I know about personally is Carleton. Maybe Carleton is on her list. Who knows? We just don’t have enough information, because the OP starts new threads instead of answering questions.
To clarify, I don’t think she should go ED elsewhere if she really, truly loves Brown far more than any other school.
OP: If posters here knew “why Brown?” then they could suggest schools with those characteristics, but less competitive. Ideally a safety school should include as much as possible of the “why” list as the reach.
If you list what makes a college attractive to you and your daughter, including financial constraints, readers will come up with a reach, match and safety list within a couple of hours. They want to help and enjoy making these lists. The application season is speeding along. Please take advantage of the help being offered.
^This. More information is needed in order to help. Provide her UW GPA - it should take all of five minutes with a calculator. Provide ACT breakdown. Extracurriculars. Then the suggestions will flow.
Her ACT and GPA do not rule her out. If she wants to apply to an Ivy, she should.
Others are making this WAY too complicated. My GC said I should take my automatic acceptance to our state school and not apply elsewhere, let alone apply to any Ivies. I got into the two Ivies I applied to. I won’t mention my GPA and SAT scores…
PLEASE don’t make this a match thread, it is a question about whether to apply to an Ivy ED or not. If someone really really REALLY wants to go to an Ivy and has a 3.9 W GPA and 34 ACT, they should apply. The OP’s daughters grades aren’t that “bad” that she should be worried about “needing to be ED” elsewhere.
(the standard caveat is that FA should be a minor concern for anyone who is applying ED to a college)
One of the challenges that I see in OP’s D case is that she has a weighted 3.9 gpa on a 4.0 gpa that includes a .6 weight given to honors and AP classes. (this could be problematic).Op really needs to talk in terms of unweighted GPA. Op also states that the highest GPA that she is aware of at her school is a 4.33. Even a 3.9 on a 4.33 could present a challenge because there will still be people applying with a 4.33 on a 4.33 scale. What OP has shared about EC says nothing really outstanding about her (granted we haven’t read her essays, GC recommendations)
All OP has to do is go to the Brown board and see the trail of broken dreams of kids with scores of 34/35/36, perfect GPAs and more extensive list of ECs who were denied, deferred in the ED round or Denied/Waitlisted in the RD round.
It is ok that she loves Brown; she needs to be realistic about her chances of getting admitted. Keep in mind even though the acceptance rate is higher ED than RD there are also a large portion of hooked applicants during the ED round; athletes, legacies, developmental admits, children of celebrities, URMs, etc.
Even Brown states that students should not think that their chances are going to be increased by applying ED;
What Op and parent need to do is to take a bottoms up approach to make sure that D has some financially feasible options that she would be happy to attend. Op’s D should have her list compiled, applications done. Should she get accepted ED, she could delete all of the applications and be in the celebration. If the decision does not go her way, she will be in a position to simply pull the trigger on the next set of schools.
^the issue for me, and maybe some others, is that there is a whole range of wonderful schools between (some) state flagships and an Ivy. It was typical at my kids’ school to apply to only the state flagship and local Ivy. That was a fine choice if someone understood what they were doing and how they were limiting options. That wasn’t always the case, so I just throw the idea out there in case it is helpful. I understand new posters may not want to reveal too much personal information here
For all we know the OP’s daughter has a perfect list of schools already in mind, in which case no help is needed and we can all say, “sure, apply, nothing to lose”
Blossom hit it. And for all folks who want to argue about elite admissions, *that’s * what they don’t get. It’s not just blossom’s luck in being associated with an elite, it’s also what you can glean by really learning what “that” college is about, what it stands for and values- and expects, now and for 4 years. That’s more than generic and not represented in some revenue generating rankings by us news.
Once in a while, you get a kid who may have an academic soft spot, but is so accomplished in every other way, incl outside, and does a bang up job on the app and supp. Even then, for any college that can expect the best and cherry pick, that’s tough.
So OP and D can make their choices. But they need their eyes wide open. She had a private counselor, there should have been some input. A great composite alone isn’t it. Maybe, instead of speculating about regretting “not trying,” the effort goes into trying to find the right matches for the 4 years.
A couple of suggestions for “Brown-like” colleges in my experience (but this obviously depends on what the D likes about Brown, which I haven’t seen posted yet):
Connecticut College, Middlebury, U Vermont, Sarah Lawrence, Brandeis, Macalester, Rice, Oberlin, Goucher, Beloit.
Mom- you’d have to run the net price calculators to see if any of these are affordable- if not, come back and I can dig deeper into my “like Brown” list. But these are typically appealing colleges for kids who don’t want a highly pre-professional environment, combination of traditional/funky college experience, serious academics.
Of course there are dozens of colleges like this- but if the D doesn’t want Smith or Mt Holyoke (my first two suggestions) this is a place to start.
I would ED Cornell or maybe Penn in this case, if she likes them. Otherwise, I’d ED a top tier non-ivy school. ED is about reaching, IMO, but you don’t want to be reaching too far out. However, if fiance is a concern, I’m not even sure you should ED at all.
IMO Amherst is most like Brown if the open curriculum, general geographic area, generous FA and reputation/rankings are the main reasons. But not if being in an urban location at a research U is the reason.
Thank you for the input. I’m not going to provide more specific info for privacy reasons - I just wanted some general input. Some of you guys are overly critical (“the poster keeps starting new threads instead of replying”? I think I’ve started three threads in the past six months!) I appreciate the input that I have received.
I don’t really know how to calculate unweighted GPA. Is it a 3.0 for a B and a 4.0 for an A? Is 3.3 for a B+ and 3.7 for an A- standard everywhere? At my friend’s school, they don’t give minuses or pluses and even a 90 is a 4.0
We don’t have a college counselor - we had someone to help with essays but she wasn’t that great.
Some poster suggested applying to Penn over Brown. It is my experience that Brown is easier to get into than Penn. My opinion (not fact) is based on interviewing about 400 applicants to Penn. Frequently those that are rejected at Penn do get into Brown. Small data set but…
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