Ivy too much of a reach?

Parents Forum
61

Harvard’s CDS mentions 58% of first time freshman received need based FA from the school. The 70% figure includes other types of aid. Harvard gives need based FA for some families making $200k+, so the % of students receiving FA is not a good metric for measuring the portion of lower income students. Instead I’d look at the income stats in the freshman survey. It looks like the median self reported family income was ~$150k, with 35% coming from wealthy families making $250k+ and 13% coming from lower income families making $40k or less. So while there are some lower income students, a larger portion of the student body is wealthy than at typical colleges in the United States. A similar pattern occurs at most highly selective private colleges, although generally not as extreme.

I attended this type of selective college, while having a family income that was far below the median. Personally, I didn’t even think about how my family income compared to others. Students I knew didn’t intentionally flaunt their wealth or only associate with certain income level students. Instead I had no idea how much the family’s of the vast majority of students made, nor did I care. Similarly I doubt family income is a big issue for most students at Brown. This is quite different from typical US high schools for a variety of reasons, including having more direct family connections while in HS (for example visiting friend’s much nicer house, parents having to explain that they can’t afford spending $4k for cheerleading like friend X’s family did, etc); so I can see why HS students are likely to have different feelings.

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I don’t think ANY student goes to Harvard for free. There is always a student contribution expected. Leaving zero income for the family (or anything up to $60K) in the Harvard NPC leaves an expected STUDENT contribution of $4600 - $3000 from student via summer work and $1600 work study.

63

Yeah, but note what Brown does not say: it is NOT easier to get in ED.

Personally, I truly believe that ED does provide supply a small admissions increase for the unhooked. It may only be a couple of a percent, but when RD is 7% and ED is say, 9%, that is, in effect, a 29% increase in chances (2%/7%). And, since the ivies generally provide the most generous need-based aid, that gamble is worth it, IMO, even tho the OP’s GPA is probably not high enough for Brown.

Sure, the OP has a better ED chance at a lower ranked school, but the need-based aid won’t be a good. And, IMO, a lower ranked school will be look very favorably on that 34, so the odds of RD are pretty good.

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According to Browns CDS, the ED rate is dropping slightly year over year while the percent students with ACT range of 30-36 is increasing up year over year

http://www.brown.edu/about/administration/institutional-research/common-data-sethttp://www.brown.edu/about/administration/institutional-research/common-data-set

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No doubt that is all true, sybbie, but that’s not the question, which is, “is there any admission bump for ED for unhooked applicants?”

Back when I was doing the college tours, there is not one admissions Rep who said, “No”, when asked that of a direct question. Even the Rep from a small school in the ‘wilderness’ admitted that there was still a “small” admissions bump, which was only a “few percent.”

Of course times may have changed in the past decade, and every applicant class is different, but if there truly was no ED advantage, don’t you think colleges would be quick to note that fact? And, Brown clearly does not.

Which all gets back to the OP. Yes, a weighted 3.9 will have an extremely difficult time getting into the admit pile, even ED. But if I’m correct, the OP has almost no chance RD.

66

It sounds like the OP received B/B+ grades in extremely accelerated math (calculus as a junior), and otherwise received A’s. If this the case, I wouldn’t say her GPA gives her “almost no chance,” particularly if she is interested in pursuing fields that aren’t math intensive. However, the OP also hasn’t mentioned anything really remarkable or unique that separates her from the tens of thousand of other applicants, many of whom also have high stats, similar school leadership positions, also are excellent writers, etc. This might include overcoming unique adversities, including ones related to the lower income; unique passions and experience related to her desired field and love of learning; impressive achievements out of the classroom (impressive on more than just a within HS level); etc.

When I applied to colleges several years ago, my weakness was subjects that did not interest/challenge me, especially English. I received almost all B’s in English and did not take AP English. My CR SAT was only average (near overall US average, not CC average), mostly due to the vocabulary section. However, when subjects did interest me, I’d usually get perfect/near–perfect grades in advanced classes. For example, during my senior year I was a half time student at one of the SUNYs where I had a 4.0 average, taking various 1st/2nd year math, science, and elective classes. I also received perfect/near-perfect scores on standardized tests related to the fields that I was passionate about and planned to pursue. I was accepted to Brown, along with other HYPSM… schools, even though my HS GPA/rank and combined SAT score were near the bottom of the entering Brown class. I expect colleges saw past the lower grades/scores for a variety of reasons, including the weaknesses being in areas that are less relevant to the fields I planned to pursue. I’d expect the same idea to apply to B’s in math for persons interested in pursuing non-STEM type fields.

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Having a few B’s isn’t as much of an issue if they make sense or show a progression. Like others have mentioned kids who have difficulty just with foreign language. Or if they get a few B’s early on but improve. My son got a B in Fresh Hon Eng, A- in Soph Hon Eng, A in Jr Hon Eng (didn’t take AP Lang but took 5 APs), and now as a Sr he is taking AP Lit and getting an A so far. So he has a story that makes sense and an amazing teacher rec from his Jr English teacher even though he’s totally a math/science guy. I personally think having a story and not being perfect is an advantage over his sibling who has a 4.4 gpa. We’ll see what the Ivies think…

68

Sorry, but when thousands have 4.0/rigor, what makes you think an adcom can’t say “Oops, look at those B’s in math?” We have no idea what the possible major is, how math affects that. But we do know Brown, in particular, is looking for kids with broad/consistent strengths across the board that foster them using the open curriculum. And that for every kid relying on “progression,” there are thousands who just did well all along, with rigor.

Sorry. I think Op will try to process and encourage the best decision they can make. But sheesh, the competition is fierce. There aren’t all these “byes” people think. Yes, it’s ridiculous.

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In general, since the “extremely accelerated math” courses would be weighted, a B/B+ would therefore be a 4.0 (or 3.5/3.8, depending on the weighting used?) for the purposes of calculating a GPA. Under a weighted system, a student can earn several B’s and still have a 4+.

70

OP did not say it was AP calc. Lots of elite level kids take calc before senior year, many of those are early AP. Someone linked the chart, but B is 3.0 on a 4.0 scale and B+ is 3.3.

And remember, adcoms look at the transcript.

71

OP, has your child even visited Brown?

72

The OP mentioned the highest GPA she had every heard of was a 4.3, which corresponds to taking the maximum advanced classes with perfect grades. It’s not as heavily weighted as typical HS systems. But yes, I agree that she either did not take the maximum possible number of advanced classes or received B’s in more than just a few math courses.

Sure, an adcom may say that, and having all A’s is preferable to not having all A’s; but the comment that triggered this tangent related to her GPA giving her “almost no chance.” The OP said that her HS’s Naviance showed some applicants with her stats being accepted to Brown. It is possible the admits were the rare 34+ ACT/lower GPA type hooks (instead of the more common lower test score hooks), but the more likely explanation is some from her HS are being accepted in spite of getting some B’s, and her GPA by itself does not give her “almost no chance.” My HS’s Naviance shows a similar pattern for this stat group, although sample size is very low.

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With respect, Data,"Our school does have Naviance and there are a couple of acceptances in her range to Brown (where she wants to apply) but many more denials, and the acceptances could be athletes or whatever, so it’s not super helpful. "

What’s “in her range?” 3.9 weighted with B’s in math or 3.9 with a B in gym and Driver’s Ed, maybe chorus-- but also DE and solid outside experiences, a strong understanding of the college? Because OP hasn’t broken down much for us, we don’t know much. This is like the kids who just know someone else’s app was not as good as theirs. never having seen the other’s app. We do know the elites do not choose based solely on GPA and a composite score.

It’s this lack of addl info, lack of any perspective we can gather, that makes me wonder, why an Ivy? No mention of why, yet. Not in the respects it takes to really form a great, relevant, strategic app. I’m not comfortable with this boiling down to the old “you won’t know unless you try.” In order to try, you should know why this college and how you match. Not just the dang gpa and score. I also wonder if the comment about wealthy students just underscores this whole issue f not knowing enough.

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I agree with this, which relates to why I’ve said “her GPA by itself does not…” and “the OP also hasn’t mentioned anything really remarkable or unique that separates her from the tens of thousand of other applicants…” in my earlier comments. While some unhooked applicants with a similar GPA are likely being accepted that does not mean the OP has a decent chance of being accepted. It only means the 3.9 GPA by itself likely does not give her “almost no chance.” Estimating chance of acceptance requires far more than just GPA or just what has been provided in this thread.

75

I think many people here are being unduly harsh toward this student. We don’t know much about her because the OP has elected not to tell us much about her. Fine. Get over it. I respect the OP’s decision not to splash the details of her child’s life all over the internet. We do know she aspires to attend Brown, and why not? It’s a great school with a distinctive culture based partly on its open curriculum and distinctive narrative grading option. That’s enough for me to conclude this kid is probably not just seeking prestige at any price, as so many on CC are. We don’t need to dissect the exact reasons she’s interested in Brown.

Does she have a chance at admission? Well, yes, there’s evidence she has a chance. According to her school’s Naviance, several applicants “in her range” have been accepted, but many more rejected. That’s to be expected at a highly selective school like Brown where something like 10% of a highly qualified applicant pool are accepted. Moreover, Brown tells us some of the odds. In 2014, Brown accepted 18.5% of valedictorians who applied, 14.3% of salutatorians, and 9.9% of those in the top 10% of their class. Obviously this applicant doesn’t get the val-sal bump, but she is in the top 10% of her class at what the OP says is a highly respected public HS, so she’s potentially in the running. (Though I suspect if Brown broke it down further, a higher percentage of those in the top 5% are admitted than those in the next 5%, but we don’t know those admit rates, nor do we know exactly where this student stands in her own class). Brown also says it accepted 12.7% of applicants with ACT scores in the 33-35 range; again, probably a higher percentage of 35s than 34s, and a higher percentage of 34s than 33s, but Brown doesn’t provide those more detailed breakdowns. A 34 ACT is terrific, by the way, and not a disqualifying score at any school in the country.

Based on all this, I’d say the student definitely has a chance, in the sense that her academic stats aren’t disqualifying and in fact are well within the range of the kinds of students Brown accepts. But based on stats alone, her chances of admission would be maybe around 10%, maybe a bit less. On the other hand, if stats alone are the best she has going for her, then her chances are probably well below 10%, especially since, as far as we know, she doesn’t have a “hook” like being a recruited athlete, a legacy, or a URM. But if she has dynamite essays, impressive ECs, strong recommendations, and a compelling story to tell, her chances are perhaps somewhere in the vicinity of 10%, possibly slightly higher. With those odds, why not take a shot, so long as it’s tempered with the understanding that it’s a longshot at best? No harm in it. The more important question, though, is what’s the list of match and safety schools where admission is more likely?. It’s a waste of time, effort, and emotional energy to obsess over a school where your odds of admission are that unfavorable. That’s not to say it’s not worth trying, but accept that while it’s a possibility, it’s an unlikely possibility, and spend more time focusing on schools where admission is more likely.

76

My figures were from the Harvard financial aid page, which of course touts them. Looking deeper, you are right, it says “some form of aid”, which may or may not include outside awards, jobs, loans , none of which are provided by Harvard except for work-study. (Harvard does not include loans in aid packages). This is apparently only 10% of the “some form of aid” though. Sixty percent are need-based. Here is info from the financial aid page:

In fact, approximately 70 percent of our students receive some form of aid, and about 60 percent receive need–based scholarships and pay an average of $12,000 per year. Twenty percent of parents pay nothing. No loans required.
20% of our parents have total incomes less than $65,000 and are not expected to contribute.
Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income, and those with incomes above $150,000 will be asked to pay proportionately more than 10%, based on their individual circumstances. Families at all income levels who have significant assets will continue to pay more than those in less fortunate circumstances.
Home equity and retirement assets are not considered in our assessment of financial need.

My impression is that Brown has more of a contingent of wealthy students. At Harvard and maybe all these schools, it is possible for a lower income student who is well-prepared to feel like he or she fits in fine, in my opinion-despite all the articles to the contrary. Or course, clueless classmates may invite you to go to India for a week, without thinking about cost.

Sorry for the tangent. I really don’t think the presence of wealth is unique to Ivies or that it is a legitimate reason not to apply.

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ps “20% of parents pay nothing” is misleading because, as someone else wrote, there is a “STUDENT contribution.” That is probably why the text says “parents” rather than “families.” Still, many Ivies really are extremely affordable with very generous aid.

78

I was never invited to India but I was invited to plenty of cool places by classmates at Brown. It didn’t bother me in the slightest- I couldn’t afford the plane ticket to someone’s fancy overseas vacation home; I was comfortable with that. Classmate didn’t want to exclude me- by assuming that I wouldn’t be able to scrape up the dough for what would be an all-expenses paid trip once we landed- that was also fine. And I also had some wonderful times hanging out at friends houses- both lavish and modest- where classmates made sure that all the entertainment was either free or an occasional “let’s get a pizza delivered”. I learned from some “trust fund babies” that if you volunteer to usher at some venues you get to see the performance for free- that was fun. I learned from the daughter of a multi-millionaire (I don’t think I knew any billionaires) that if you get a summer job at a museum in many cities- even just a minimum wage cashier at the gift shop- you get a pass which gets you free admission into the other cultural institutions in that city. And I learned how to negotiate a raise without upsetting your boss (something wealthy kids seemingly absorb which modest income kids don’t know how to do).

Honestly- if someone is going to obsess that by attending a college with kids (some kids) with a lot of money that every other person’s vacation plans are going to derail their sense of self- stay home and get an online degree. There are fancy cars in the student parking lot at our state university- I have faculty friends who joke that “someday” they’ll be able to afford to drive the cars that their Freshman drive. You going to suggest to a kid to avoid their state flagship so they don’t have to see the BMW’s that their friends own?

Back to our original argument. But I couldn’t let this pass.

79

Not sure if this is addressed to me. My example about the invitation to India was meant to be light humor, in order illustrate a kind of trivial issue that shouldn’t interfere with the decision to apply. I clearly stated that a student from a lower-income family who is well-prepared should have no trouble fitting in, and that the idea that a campus is full of wealthy students is neither true nor a legitimate reason to avoid applying.

Socioeconomic diversity provides many opportunities for cross-pollination, and that works both up and down. It is a valuable experience and elite colleges with resources are often the best institutions to provide this experience, since they have the funds for financial aid. Two of my kids attended Ivies and had a wonderful time, with friends from varied backgrounds, despite the fact that they couldn’t go to India on vacation- joke. (And later they did get funding to go abroad anyway, from the school.)

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Compmom- I know you meant it in jest, but I think the OP (as well as others) might have interpreted your comment as support for the position that low income kids feel out of place at colleges where there are a lot of 1%'ers. And my observation about some- not all- of these colleges, is that there are lots of programs, support,etc. to make sure that on-campus entertainment is free or close to it; that there are funded opportunities to travel and study in other places; that Deans and Masters and others can slip a kid cash, no questions asked, to attend a grandparents funeral or take an unexpected trip home when homesickness strikes. I know that Chaplains at some of these schools are often the “first alert” when a kid isn’t eating on the weekends (on a limited meal plan to save money) and have the wherewithal to intervene.

Low income families don’t realize that these supports are in place.