<p>Quaker; excellent post. My point exactly with my "CAR LOAN" analogy. Not that an education should be compared to an automobile; but I believe that a 5 year payback is acceptable. If we can take out a 5 year car loan (Price of loan is dependent on what you can afford); then there's nothing wrong with having a college loan/debt that can be paid back in 5 years. If you have an $80,000 or MORE Harvard loan debt, and the job you get out of college is only paying $30,000 a year; I doubt you can pay it off in 5 years. However, if your income is $60,000 a year, it's quite doable to hold back $20,000 a year from that salary and be debt free in 5 years. Just a matter of how much you can parlay that education into.</p>
<p>This topic has been discussed countless time and in short there is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer... </p>
<p>If there's clear evidence that school X is truly better than school Y for a particular course of study then yes I could see one reasonably justifying some limited debt to choose one school over another. What's considered a 'reasonable' amount of debt depends on ones personal financial situation... but one should be able to pay it off in a few years (eg 5-7) time without making major sacrifices. </p>
<p>However, most of these 'debt' types of questions are posed along the 'Ivy' line seemingly trying to ask if there's something special about a school in the Ivy league vs. one that's not... the answer there is a simple no. One should not go into debt to choose a school simply because it's an Ivy league school... that would be a big mistake.</p>
<p>I'm incredibly happy with my ivy's culture, the smaller size, and the people I've met here. I'll graduate with considerable debt, but not for a moment do I regret it. Is it worth it money-wise? Eh, I probably will end up just as successful monetarily anyway, but this particular college and experience is a great match for me. I've always been friends with the intelligent overachievers and now I'm surrounded by them in a sea and I love it. But that's an emotional value I attach to it---and not all people really need that or even LIKE the atmosphere. So really, I know you want an answer, but your call.</p>
<p>Well, if I believed that ONLY THE IVY league schools had "Intelligent Overachievers"; then I might agree. But in no way do I believe that they are the only schools with the "Exceptional" students. But I do have a friend's son who graduated from Yale last year. He's back home here working at one of the pizza joints while he finds that "Dream Job" of his. I'll see if he agrees.</p>
<p>On the other hand; there is a topic here at CC about a student who is choosing her college primarily because she LIKES THE BATHROOM in the dorm. If that's the sort of stuff that's important to some students when it comes to a college education, then they can go in as much debt as they want. They deserve everything they get. I just hope we don't have to pay for these people and their loans when they don't/can't.</p>
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<p>I don't why afadad keep using Harvard grad making $30k year to pay off $80K loan as counter argument that it's bad business. $30K year is far off the scale isn't it ? Don't use individual case about Yale grad who likes being a pizza maker. That's not the normal case. Maybe he found zen, connecting with people in a pizza joint, who knows. Next,your blanket statement that "ONLY the IVY..." is self-serving. If you word it like that, of course it's not true. But if you hear from Ivy parents and students, most are grateful for the experience.</p>
<p>Galestorm, if your goal is a job in business/finance with some big brokerage house, and you think the Yale law degree will justify a lot of debt: THOSE TIMES ARE OVER. </p>
<p>I would agree that you could use an education in econ, but I'd suggest going for the least expensive route possible to get that education, at least until you have the basic grounding needed to make big financial decisions. </p>
<p>I'm sorry, but you definitely need a reality check on your goals.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I'll graduate with considerable debt, but not for a moment do I regret it.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>It's too early to decide now whether or not one regrets a considerable amount of debt--repayment hasn't started! There have been many articles of late that tell stories of recent graduates who were crushed by educational debt after finding a job that didn't pay enough to service that debt comfortably. Of course, the stories didn't focus on Ivy league schools and those who ended up in higher paying jobs right out of college--but the risk is always there.</p>
<p>Sethcolby; the ivy leagues definitely aren't the only one. ANY school that puts you into more than 5 years of debt, based on what you make, is too much. A student without aid going to Tulane will cost about $45,000 a year. Cutting that in half because of scholarships and such could still yield a debt of $80,000 assuming they graduated in 4 years and not 5-6 years. Or what about the fact that only approximately 28% of students even graduate in 5-6 years? Then you're looking at debt and didn't even graduate. I only mention Harvard because they are the stereotype. That's like saying a "Coke" for any soda. If your harvard degree is in the sciences, engineering, etc...; or something leading to those types of paying jobs, it is quite conceivable that the education can be easily paid back. But paying for a harvard degree in say history, literature, mythology, etc... doesn't seem practical.</p>
<p>If you look back at my earlier post, I said clearly that if the school; even Harvard; is known highly for the degree you want, then that could be beneficial. But getting a liberal arts degree or similar doesn't seem economically feasible. Especially if you know you need graduate school. I.e. Being $100K+ in debt for a degree in Folklore; and then turning around and going into more debt to get the Harvard law Degree doesn't make any sense. Why not go to state U or a school that you can get a good scholarship from; saving a lot of money; then going to Harvard for your law degree?</p>
<p>Again; there's a lot of people where money doesn't mean anything to them. They can spend whatever they want. However; the original poster appears to be financially responsible and that's why they were asking the question. The person who thinks money isn't important, debt isn't important, and saying you went to Harvard (Or wherever) is more important; would never have asked that sort of question on a forum.</p>
<p>Our kid was offered a full-ride scholarship (everything but books and fees) to the state flagship, and I think he would have been happy there. He loved Harvard, was accepted there, and is going there for about $14,000 a year -- about the cost of state flagship U, had he not earned a full-ride scholarship there. Yes, it would have been cheaper for us to send him to state U, and it would have saved us a chunk of change. (He would have been OK if we had told him we could not afford his first choice, which was Harvard.) But so far Harvard has been an incredibly wonderful experience for him; he is stretching himself academically and socially, and loves the people he has met and the classes he has taken. We are happy with our investment so far. (He's only a freshman.)</p>
<p>We are not going to let our son go into more than $10,000 debt (total) for undergrad education. If one of us loses a job, our evaluation of this college decision might change (although I believe Harvard will take job loss into account with its financial aid package). We are a middle-class, two-income family, and money is definitely not unlimited for us. But we value education, we value opportunities for our kids, and we were prepared to pay at least the cost of state flagship for each kid, so Harvard has been do-able for us. You are looking for input, and that's where we are right now on this issue.</p>
<p>(I'm assuming OP found out, as we did, that taxable income is not the same as earned income when HYPS is determining financial aid eligibility. And that a student financial contribution is required, independent of the parental one. That's why $80,000 in taxable family income does not necessarily mean that the student and family only have to come up with $8,000 total a year for Yale.)</p>
<p>whatever4; excellent post. One thing that she be considered is WHO IS THE ONE GOING INTO DEBT? My comments are about an individual paying their own way through school. Or at least, the amount of debt THEY will end up with at the end of their education and when they start earning money. </p>
<p>By all means, if you (The student) has parents that want to pay your entire education, then go for it. They are adults. NOT ONE PERSON HERE or anywhere else is going to tell them what is or isn't financially smart or responsible. They already believe what they believe and that is very unlikely to change. I suggest you take advantage of it. But if you; who doesn't have a lot of experience with finances and debt; (The student) is the one who will have the debt; then consider it very seriously.</p>
<p>With my kids, I was willing; based on my income and investments; to pay UP TO FULL PRICE of our in state University. Without 1 penny of financial aid, the most it would cost for in state university would be about $15,000. That includes tuition, books, dorm, food, etc... That is the AMOUNT I promised to both my kids. UP TO THAT MUCH. That didn't mean they had to go to our state school. BUT; if they wanted to go to Yale; got accepted; total cost was $50,000; they received $30,000 in scholarships, private, grants, etc... (Free Money). That leaves them a bill of $20,000. I will give them up to $15,000. That leaves them a debt of $5000 a year; plus any spending money or other expenses. Chances are, approximately an $8500 a year debt for them. Now; that's a $34,000 debt after 4 years. That's their choice. On the other hand; if they found a school where they could get a 100% full ride; Which BOTH my kids did; then we take care of all their spending money. We continue to pay their cell phone, car insurance, gas money, visiting home, tickets, etc... We also give them about $200-$300 a month for spending money. Again; their choice. They chose this. They both are going to excellent schools. They both graduate 100% debt free. I and my wife save about $7,000 a year for the first three years for my daughter; $14,000 this year for both my kids; and $7000 a year for the next 3 years with just my son. Then, if they want to go to graduate school, they will be debt free going into it. If they can get a great loan, fellowship, etc...; then great. If not, I will LOAN them the money at 0% interest. Sorry, but our family doesn't give our kids things other than traditional birthday, christmas, etc... gifts. My daughter will pay me for the car I let her have; if she wants to keep it. (She knows I'll only charge her a couple hundred dollars; but it's the point that SHE BOUGHT it and she wasn't GIVEN ANYTHING. It's just the way our family has been for many generations. You appreciate things more when you have to pay and work for it. They worked through college with scholarships. That's why in high school, I only let them have summer jobs. Their job during the school year was to get straight "A" if possible and get scholarships. They did and they appreciate their education and that they are debt free.</p>
<p>I think you have an opportunity to go there at a pretty good rate. I'm a little surprised the package isn't better, though. My daughter could have gone to a good state school, UC Berkeley, but she has been very happy at Brown (for a lower cost, however) and very happy of the opportunities to do research and work closely with prominent professors in her field. And now she has one PhD acceptance, in a funded area, from a top 15 school, awaiting others, so that is another hidden payoff.</p>
<p>She recently commented that she received an entire education just by attending visiting speakers lectures. She was able to see Hillary and Obama speak before they were even running for President. And the colloquia gives another dimension and exposure to profs at other schools.</p>
<p>However, as others have said, your expectations are wildly out of touch. I know people at Brown (which was traditionally heavily recruited by Goldman and other IB's) who can't get an interview. And these are stars in the Econ department, and virtual machines when it comes to work and discipline. And yes, dear, the grownups here know about Econ majors working on wall street.</p>
<p>I'm disturbed by your big plan. I don't think it is a good idea to make such detailed plans when you are in high school. It is important to have an open mind and discover things in college. My daughter has been a peer advisor and one of the things she was asked to do, by the program, was to encourage people in her major to explore, get out of their comfort zone and try new and cross-disciplinary avenues.</p>
<p>Best wishes.</p>
<p>Thank you all very much for your input. Anyway, I hoped that by conceding to the ultimate omniscience of the "grownups" I would avoid patronization, and the vast majority of you have indeed answered me with serious consideration and compassion. A few clarifications: I specified "Ivy" because it is a concise way of communicating the caliber of the school. I'm in no way saying it's superior, or that the label is my reason for wanting to attend Yale. Secondly, I do realize that getting hired at an IB has become extremely competitive recently, but people are still hiring (not Lehman, though haha. I was just remembering speaking with a recruiter there over the summer before the proverbial "burst" of the economic bubble). And who is to say what the economic climate will be like in four years? Furthermore, I do intend to fully explore my options in college. My "plan" is as much intended to give me a little peace of mind as anything else. I'm just trying to be realistic and responsible.</p>
<p>I just would be very carefull about any private school promises on aid, with the endowments going down substantially, and the need for financial increasing (the private schools have not yet seen the tsunami wave for more aid request, parents who had jobs, and then got layed off in the last 3 months, typically have severances of 6 to 12 months, and then if they cannot find a job then the financial aid requests will be pouring into these schools in 2010).</p>
<p>I think HYP are safe, but the lesser ivies and the other top privates schools are going to have significant cutbacks.</p>
<p>Also, if your plan is to try to go to a top school's PhDprogram (which are fully funded), be very carefull here, with the federal deficit being so huge now, there is going to be a lot less funding available (like from NIH for example), and thus a lot more competitve to get in.</p>
<p>The world is and has been changing. It has become much more competitive and the Ivy brands have risen in value a lot. This will not lead to higher expected income if you plan to be an artist or a composer, though you might meet more kids from families who could collect art at HYP than at a bunch of other schools. There is a good chance that it would lead to higher expected lifetime income if you went into management consulting or finance. For example, one of my friends is a partner at one of the major management consulting firms. They interview at the Ivies and at a few others (Williams, Amherst) but no more than 12 schools and probably hire most from HYP (though one office hires a lot from Brown, the NY office from Columbia, etc.). In the middle are areas like public health, where there might be a little increment in expected lifetime income because of contacts, but I don't have a lot of experience.</p>
<p>I will say that I think attending one of the HYP opened doors for me years ago. Early on in my career, I am sure that I received certain offers from a combination of where I want to school and the quality of my work. I think it made getting into the best grad schools easier. Then, getting a PhD and teaching at another of HYP opened many other doors for me and continues to do so. What distinguishes HYP and a few other schools is not the quality of the education, but the horizons and the contacts. I think that being at one of those schools causes many people to raise their sights -- "I want to be the best in the world at what I do." It also provides contacts that are hard to beat. One of my friends was the CEO of a Fortune 500 company and hired my firm to help with a big problem (there probably isn't another firm that is as good, so it was a sensible choice, but another CEO might not have known of our existence). Another college friend is the dean of a high-ranking professional school and on the boards of several companies. Another is the partner of a consulting firm that has explored working with us on projects. The possibilities arise because of their judgment of my underlying competence but it helps to be swimming in the right school of fish.</p>
<p>How much that is worth is really an individual choice. For me, it is likely worth well more than $50K, but you're you.</p>
<p>I'm in a different predicament... my parents make 300k+, and are only willing to pay for a state school (which is about 125k), leaving me at about 75k debt after college (all are mostly 200k for 4 yrs). Plus, I only applied to ivy league schools/mit/stanford/duke (I didn't know until recently). Is there anything I can do to help alleviate the debt (because I don't think schools will help with financial aid)? Plus, if I graduate early, I think they will only pay for 3 yrs of state school. How long will it take me to pay back 75k, assuming I'm lucky and get a job on wall st post graduation (I want to major in econ). Sorry for all the questions and thanks!</p>
<p>Do your parents not have a savings for your tuition? With that kind of income they should be able to fund your education over four years at any school, even Ivies, without any financial aid. I'm in the same boat but my parents made a promise to me a long time ago that if I could get into a strong school that required a steep tuition, they would enthusiastically pay it. Education is one of the most important investments you can make and you should try to explain to your parents that it won't hurt them that much to fund an education at one of those prestigious universities if you can get accepted.</p>
<p>QuakerOats,
My parents do have a savings but it's more due to recent conflicts within my family and their values/culture... both parents went to state schools and their parents didn't have much money. I'm applying to scholarships but there's only so much that can cover... and they could definitely pay for my education many times over, don't think thats as much as a factor as the family problems</p>
<p>To the original OP:<br>
You said that the debt would be no more than 20-50k, and that your mom would probably take on more debt than she should in order for you to attend your dream school. It seems to me that if you could take on half of the debt yourself and pay her back 20k over time, if the total is say, 40k, that it might make it possible. You will have taken on a reasonable amount of debt, and so would your mom.<br>
My D graduated from Yale. We are still paying on the loan, as we paid full price for her to go. It was worth every penny to us.
If you are thinking of majoring in English and possibly getting a PhD at some point in this field, it's my belief that there is no better undergraduate school to have come from than Yale. You mentioned double majoring. I'd be cautious about this. While it's possible to do, you'll want to get a high gpa, graduate with honors, and receive sterling letters of recommendation. If you spread yourself too thin, it will be harder to achieve these things. Just like in high school, the best letters of rec go to the most dedicated and motivated students, and these letters are what will make or break a grad school application.
The world is becoming more competitive, and credentials, degrees and contacts will become more valuable throughout your lifetime. If you can swing
a degree with honors from Yale that you can carry with you for the rest of your life for 50k, it's a bargain, imo.</p>
<p>It also matters what your final degree will be...</p>
<p>For those that go on to graduate school, your undergrad really doesn't matter. My unknown undergrad got me into a semi-known masters which got me into a flagship research doctoral program....</p>
<p>Once you have an advanced degree, no one cares where you did your undergrad.</p>
<p>Re: comment from several posts back: "In a sense, the more money you expect your parents to put in, the more you "owe" them back in terms of your college performance."
Sorry but this thinking is very counter to my own, and I can't help chiming in here with an alternate viewpoint. I will choose to pay whatever amount for my child's education that seems right considering all factors at the time. The way college costs generally look these days, I imagine that will mean stretching and paying a lot, and making sacrifices. I will do this out of my desire to love, support, and give as much as I can to my child, in the hopes that this will help her soar in her life. The gift will be freely given to her, just because that is what I am about as a parent. Hopefully she will use it to the best of her ability, and since she is human, she is not expected to use it "perfectly". The only one she will owe is herself, and hopefully with continued positive support, she will not let herself down. Parenting and the associated financial responsibilities is not a balance sheet, with children owing "big" depending on the size of the parental contribution. I've made plenty of financial mistakes in my life so far, I expect I will make a few more before I go, and I expect my D will also make her share. It's just not worth stressing too much about - make the best decision you can given your circumstances, and go from there. Yes, of course money is important, but I prefer to keep the perspective that it is ONLY MONEY, there are many more important things in life.
So ... is debt to go to an Ivy worth it? Dunno, my parents were wealthy and paid full sticker for my Ivy education. I'm not your typical Ivy grad, I am a public-servant social worker, and I am happy with my life and my career. Being an Ivy grad has made me a curiosity, rather than a sought-after commodity in my profession, and it didn't necessarily open career doors for me - I had to find them and open them myself. I really went to college for my parents, not for me. Don't get me wrong, I am grateful for the opportunity - it helped me grow intellectually, which I still value today, but at the time I didn't really have any dreams about what I would do with what I was given. OP and other kids, the trick is to figure out what your values are, what your hopes and dreams and goals are, and whether going to a particular college will support your dreams and your values. If so, then maybe the price tag, including loans, is worth it. Totally a personal decision.</p>