I am considering some Ivies (Penn and Columbia mostly) along with some elite state schools (Michigan, UVA and UCLA). I guess that some private schools like Duke or Stanford are probably more similar to the state schools in this context. I really like the environment of an Ivy, where everybody is driven and intelligent, but I’m worried about sacrificing some experiences that I consider fairly important, like going to parties and football games. I’m looking for advice and feedback from people who have been in this situation or are also currently in this situation. Do Ivies have a big advantage in the academic environment, and do bigger schools have a big advantage in social scene? Thanks for the help!
Zuh? How so?
There are plenty of lazy and unmotivated students at every Ivy, and every Ivy has parties and sports games.
I suggest you learn more about these schools so you don’t make your important life decisions based on misunderstandings or reductive overgeneralizations.
marvin100, I think rtristan07 was referring to campus environment (big time athletics, school spirit etc…).
rtristan, you would be surprised how similar schools like Cal, Michigan and UVa are to the Ivy League when it comes to academic rigor and student intellectual intensity/ambition…or how similar most Ivy League schools are to public elites and private universities like Duke and Stanford when it comes to social life and school pride.
If you like a nice balance between academics and social life, Cal, Duke, Michigan, Northwestern, Stanford, UCLA and UVa are all great, but so are Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, Penn and Princeton.
You might start by making a list of all the qualities you’d like to have in your ideal university. Not what others say are important or desirable, but what you want and would be most comfortable with. For example: academics, professors, majors, location, student life, greeks, athletics, learning support, special programs in your areas of interest, size, student/teacher ratio, diversity, cost, financial aid and so one. Then search for schools that have these characteristics. It seems to me that leaping directly into comparing state schools and ivys without going through this process will lead you astray and possible to a university that you’ll be unhappy with.
You obviously didn’t go to the same prepschool w the lazyass trustfund kids my kids went to school with…
What makes you think that kids at the Ivies are more driven and intelligent? And what makes you think that kids at the Ivies do not attend parties while kids at the “elite” state schools you mention do? You have a lot more research to do.
Stanford’s not only got the smarts, and parties, but great football too! (And it’s as good or better than the Ivies.)
Our only real exposure to Ivy academics was an eye opener. D was trying to decide where to apply ED and we sat through four classes at Brown. Not some accepted student make believe class but actual classes. On of them was a fascinating astrophysics class but in one of them students were getting up and walking out multiple times or spending the entire class on their computer on social media sites or doing homework for another class. Our takeaway was that although you need to be bright and you need to appear to have loads of intellectual curiosity to be admitted, not all Ivy campuses are the epicenter of intellectual thought they are purported to be. I would suggest more research and visits
I have a kid at one of those so called " elite" state schools. She is driven and intelligent; she graduated HS at the very very top with high test scores, various awards, and all 5’s blah blah blah. She has created a social scene for herself without any parties, and will typically go out either Friday or Saturday night, but never both and sometimes neither if she has plans during the day ( such as a game) on a weekend. There are plenty of students like her, while some others go out more. What is the academic environment like at her " elite" state school? Intense and rigorous. For the first time ever in 18 years she is not experiencing all A+'s and has experienced her very first B on a few quizzes. She recently read a research article for a class and told me she was " a little clueless." She has one lecture that is discussion based even with 200 students and she has developed a close relationship with her professor. The remaining classes have under 30 students.
One must not assume that a non Ivy will provide a lesser " academic experience," and a public is all about the social scene. My kid chose not to apply to an Ivy.
Some Ivy League schools have a very “wet” party reputation.
Hum…you are talking to the wrong people. the only difference between Ivies and state schools re parties is the locations.
However, pretty irrelevant if you are loaded with debt. Go to the best school where you fit, are comfortable and you like the people AND where you get out with the least debt. No debt is best and that can be accomplished at elite state schools. With no debt you would be miles ahead once you enter the job market.
^^indeed. Not all that long ago, one was the inspiration for the movie Animal House 
Experience with current students says that it hasn’t changed all that much since*…
*allowing for parody, of course…
You’re talking about Delta, sir.
lol @merc81
One thing to mention is the financial difference.
Schools like Penn, Stanford, Duke, and Columbia have generous financial aid and meet 100% of a student’s determined financial need. Elite public universities may be a boon for the residents of those states but generally offer little aid to the students who live outside them. Thus a Michigan, UVa, or UCLA education has a similar price tag to an elite private’s BUT without the generous financial aid packages you will get there. Some of these places do have some scholarships but they are very competitive (like the Jefferson Scholars at UVa).
If money is at all a consideration for your family, this may make the difference if they are not full pay.
That said, I get where you are coming from. While it’s true that students at elite schools definitely do party, the social scene at a university with 5-10,000 students is going to be really different from one with 40,000 (although UVa is smaller, with closer to 15,000 students). And let’s be real - I went to Columbia (as a grad student) and the undergrads don’t go to the football games. The stadium isn’t even near the main campus; it’s about 100 blocks north of the main campus. Columbia doesn’t have a bit athletics/sports culture despite being D1. I can’t speak to Penn, but I do know that Stanford and Duke have more robust sports cultures on campus.
Still, they’re not really comparable to the machine that is Michigan in that area. I know tons of Michigan grads who are 5-10 years out of school and not generally interested in other sports who still follow Michigan football. And I have a couple of UCLA grad friends who I never realized were previously interested in sports until they mentioned something about some UCLA game. So yeah, the culture is really different from going to one of the other schools you mentioned (maybe with the exception of Duke, which has a relatively strong sports culture, especially with basketball).
There are also a whole bunch of private schools other than Ivies that have excellent reputations and also may have a social scene more akin to what you’re looking for - University of Miami and Boston College both come to mind immediately. Tulane also has acquired a party school reputation,* although I think their partying has a different feel to it than bigger schools’.
*I just want to take a moment and note that I don’t think a party school reputation is a bad thing at all. Let’s be real, a lot of 18-year-olds want to party in college. It was a major consideration in my own college search, right alongside academics, and frankly I had the same kind of back-and-forth as this OP is having right now about going to elite schools. There’s nothing wrong with knowing you want a robust social life, and if you look at any list of “top party schools” most of those schools are also the best public and private universities in the country.
Some of these top public schools meet full financial need for all students. My kids friend is from out of state at one of these schools and goes for under $15,000 a year. That being said, some of the Ivies (not all) also have outstanding FA.
Only two public Us promise to meet full need, one (UMich) tries to. All the Ivies do. Their cutoff for the definition of needs varies significantly (but it does for the public Us as well).
I disagree that you will somehow find yourself with “less debt”, as has been suggested here, going to an elite state school. It is costing us less for our son to attend an Ivy than it would to attend an elite UC. You need to investigate for yourself.
For a certain socioeconomic demographic, public universities are a great value. Families with incomes slightly over the range deemed “aid worthy” but nowhere close to affording the $70k needed to attend private universities. To such families, good public universities that cost $40,000-$60,000k per year are a great value.
Your posts are assuming only one economic demographic - the student who gets Ivy scholarships and grants as part of the need package. The assumption is only true to attend an Ivy League if one’s financial package does not include large loans, including parent plus loans.
However, if one has the stats to get into the Ivy league then one has the credentials to get serious merit money and a host of other goodies from elite state schools that make it more affordable than the Ivy League.
Case-in-point: I had two executives who made upper six figures and their very brilliant kids where given an option - spend their college money at the big shot Ivy schools or go to their top state schools and keep the money. With SATs in the upper 1% and serious ECs, those kids got complete full rides to their state schools honors programs and free this and that. Result - great education at elite state school and over $180K in the bank for themselves even after paying for room and board and cars and summer trips etc. If they went to the Ivys, they would have had zero left with no cars, no trips etc.
Now, take the families in the $150 - 175K range that must take loans to afford the Ivys, and the elite state college with merit and other scholarships would allow the student and family to get out with zero debt or very little debt. More importantly, they have no loans to pay back, as the Ivys would saddle them with.
Bottom line - The Ivys are really only less expensive for students and families who could not afford them in the first place. For the families who could afford some or all of the Ivys, then similar stats make elite state schools really, really cheap in comparison.