<p>mommusic -
but… these kids can make up for it. They can attend community college for a couple of years, catch up and transfer to a pretty good school.</p>
<p>I notice that nobody on this thread has mentioned an actual person who wanted to go to college but couldn’t because of money. That’s what Mathews says he’s unaware of. Here on CC we read often of kids who can’t go to the college they’d prefer because of money, of course.
Now, it may be that there are people who don’t even try to go to college because they ASSUME they wouldn’t be able to afford it. But, in fact, pretty much anybody with the grades to go to college can find a way to afford to go, even if it involves working for a year first, getting loans, etc. This is especially true if we include community college as an option.</p>
<p>JustAMomof4: You make it sound easy. Suppose there’s barely enough money for food & rent? And the student (assuming they finish HS) is expected to get a job and help out with family finances? Perhaps there are medical or dental issues. </p>
<p>So where is the money coming from for tuition, not to mention books & transportation to school? While the parents (or single parent) is actively discouraging the student from “getting above herself” in wanting to go to college.</p>
<p>It’s an uphill battle. It can be done, but only by the EXTREMELY motivated, smart, and lucky.</p>
<p>romangypsieyes - you friend is not going to college for a lack of $$, rather from a lack of support.</p>
<p>I have a “5th” child. She also was a product of a teen pregnancy She was kicked out of her mom’s house at age 12 and lived with her uncle.
She is considered and independent student (since her mother signed over guardianship in court) and attends a state university. Fortunately she got a lot of support from her guidance counselor, me and a very kind woman in her department in college.
She is paying for everything through federal/state grants (efc=), federal loans, sub, unsub stafford and perkins and working. She had to work this summer to pay her balance so she can register for classes this fall. It’s hard. She has no money, she took the lowest meal plan she could get and ate two meals/day all year. She had no computer until one of my girls gave her an old notebook to use.
it’s really really hard. she has no family support although her relationship with her mother is improving.</p>
<p>IMO - the biggest impediment to getting to and graduating from college is a lack of support, not a lack of money.</p>
<p>“bartleby, re: learning disabilities, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Seriously, don’t even try; you discredit yourself with each post.”</p>
<p>Such convincing arguments.</p>
<p>Yes, Mathews claim is probably correct, if you’re a top student you’ll
find a spot somewhere and yes, with a great deal of family and
community support, and lots of work a lower income students can go to college.
What is also true is what Mathews leaves out - the cost of attendance
has risen rapidly, much faster than the rate of inflation, while state and
federal support has been pretty much stagnant. The ever increasing financial
aid gap is impacting access and level of access, not only for lower income
kids but also for many middle class students. Mathews picks out a tiny sample
and then goes on to make various far reaching claims. A case of missing the
forest for the trees.</p>
<p>speedo, you keep making the same point, but has the cost of attendance really gone up that much for community colleges and low-cost state universities? For example, the typical cost of attendance at Frostburg State University in Maryland is $17,000. It seems to me that a student who is willing to work and take out some loans should be able to manage that without any grants at all, especially if he’s willing to take a year off and work before enrolling.</p>
<p>speedo - are you from PA by any chance?
I see your point if you are referring to Penn State being so expensive for in-state. It frosts me esp when you look at COA’s at other states.</p>
<p>However, there is a huge State university system that is available to PA students with a COA of about $14,600. For the poorest students, add up the Pell Grant, SEOG, Sub Stafford, Perkins and Unsub and you probably can pay for it.
Estimating here:
Pell grant = $5000
Pheaa grant = 3000
Stafford = 3500
un sub stafford = 2000
that totals $13500. Add in a scholarship, a job and/or a perkins loan and you are done.</p>
<p>Like I said - it’s not that one CAN’T go to college - it’s just that they might not be able to go to the school they WANT to go to.</p>
<p>
This I agree with but access to what? an elite private school? maybe
Bottom line is - any kid who wants to go can find a way to go. Being easy is not part of this equation.</p>
<p>“if you’re a top student you’ll
find a spot somewhere”</p>
<p>As others and myself have pointed out, you don’t have to be a top student, or anywhere close, to go to most state universities, whether it be Frostburg State or UC Riverside, which are affordable to even the poorest kids due to government grants.</p>
<p>I have in front of me the finaid package for one of those lower state colleges
you refer to. For someone with family income just under $40,000, the unmet
need is $10,037 - apparently that takes into account trans, books, tech fees.
etc but those are their figures not mine. And you’re right, you can work summers,
part time in the Winter,(if you can find a job on campus, very hard to do, especially
as a freshman), and if nothing goes wrong - can’t afford an injury or a root canal.
Sure a small number of kids will make that work but it will be too much for most
kids and they will stay home and perhaps commute to the local cc. That’s the
overwhelming pattern for low income kids. And, of course, at my local cc, not a
bad one, the dropout rate is over 50%. That’s one reason why the dropout rate
for low income kids is some incredible number - I think I saw over 70%. The real
kicker is that the same kid that goes to the local cc may be a darn good student
and qualified to attend PSU main campus. That’s not accessible to low income
kids. And, yes, for Mr. Hunt and for the 100th time on CC, access and level of
access to higher ed is largely determined by income. A point Mathews, despite
years of columns on college has yet to grasp.</p>
<p>Injury? Oh, please, Johnny BMW pays for adultBasic in your state of Pennsylvania that provides free health insurance for the poor.</p>
<p>speedo - the cost for one year at Kutztown - tuition, room and board is $14,500.
A freshman gets a Sub stafford for $3500 and a un Sub for $2000.
so now we are down to $9000 before any grants kick in either PHEAA or Pell.</p>
<p>Yes work is expected. I don’t think it’s so hard for a freshman to work on campus. Mine did. One of mine also went to school two hrs away and came home every other weekend and holidays to work her retail job.</p>
<p>there is nothing wrong with starting at a community colleges. PA has some very good ones. Kids drop out because of lack of ambition and/or they aren’t ready for college.
tuition at our cc is $77/credit. That’s 1232/semester and can be paid cash from a job at WalMart or Target.
After that - two years at Penn State or a state U - one qualfies for more subsidized loans.
It’s true that a kid who can get into Penn State - Main might have to commute to the local Penn State campus for two years or go to a state owned school. But - they CAN go to college. Just maybe not the one they “deserve”.</p>
<p>One issue here is that the non-elite schools will usually put loans in their financial aid packages. For an upper middle class student who has parents to back him up, it might make sense to go to a more expensive school and go 20-30k into debt. </p>
<p>For a middle class student who cannot get financial assistance from their parents should they be unable to make payments on their debt, it really is not a good financial decision to go to an expensive school. </p>
<p>With that said I really do fail to see why there is so much pressure to go to a 4 year school right out of high school. Suppose we have a student who is impoverished and one standard deviation of the mean on SATs and grades. His 1800/2400 and 3.5 GPA will not get him into a top school or get him merit scholarships. But if he goes to a community college for two years and gets into his state flagship, then he should end up paying no more than 15k on tuition (this could be much less if his state flagship is not expensive).</p>
<p>Just a mom, I am quoting the figures from a lower level state college,
just like Kutztown. Again their numbers after aid and loans $10,037
in unmet need. I assume they know what they’re talking about. With
loan around $28,000 for 4 years and a grad rate of only 31%, it’s
a very shaky deal. I couldn’t really advise anyone to do that.</p>
<p>As for Bartleby, Adult basic has been full in Pa for some time. I think
the waiting list is years long. It is not California here.</p>
<p>Btw I did hear back from Mathews and he wants to talk, so I’ll let
you know what he has to say.</p>
<p>
If by “level of access” you mean choice, then there is, of course, truth in what you say. But you can say it 1000 times and it will make no difference: poor people have access to a college education in the United States, if they have the grades to go to college. Obviously, being poor may contribute to a person dropping out of high school, or not getting a diploma, etc., but that’s a different issue from the cost of college.</p>
<p>Some of you need a HARD lesson in financial aid, finances, and the real-life world. Those who are underpriveledged due to finances typically do not have the resources necessary to maintain 3.0+ GPA during HS. They also are not fortunate enough to afford the study guides for SAT or ACT testing. They also are not provided the emotional and mental support to comprehend that education is important. They are kept home to babysit when mom or dad is too drunk or too high to come home. Some of these kids do not even have the proper tools needed to attempt studying. Ever try to focus on homework while your parent(s) were throwing a HUGE party in your living room? Its not that they do not want to become successful members of society…there just isn’t anyone to give them a hand up.</p>
<p>As for the HS GC’s providing sufficient information to students…yeah, only if you are lucky. My oldest daughter is now a Junior in HS and I have yet to see anything come from her school. I even requested a meeting last year (while she was a sophomore) to make sure her Junior year courses met the college requirements for admission (we already know where she will be attending). The GC told me…its too early to be thinking about college, we can discuss her college plans when she enters her senior year. That will be too little too late for most students to begin thinking about college or to figure out they don’t have enough of the right courses necessary to get into the schools they want to attend.</p>
<p>Now, my daughter is fortunate…my career is financial aid at a 4 year private, so I understand what resources are available and the steps to take…but when the HS will not provide me with the tools necessary to make sure she is properly enrolled in HS classes she needs, I shutter to think how unfortunate other kids at this school are.</p>
<p>I spoke with many of the graduating seniors from this HS last year, just a few short months before they graduated. Several had JUST begun looking at colleges only to find they didn’t have the right courses to gain admittance. Some had absolutely NO clue about financial aid, grants, scholarships, etc. Very little information had been diseminated to the students.</p>
<p>On the flip side, I have seen too many “elite” students who graduate from HS with 3.5+ GPA and very high testing scores who flunk out of college after their first semester. And I have seen many students who fought to maintain a 2.0 GPA with average test scores excel when they hit the college campus and maintain 3.5+ GPA’s.</p>
<p>There is no rhyme or reason to who will or will not become a successful member of society. HS grades definately do not make that determination but a lack of focus on ensuring everyone has an equal opportunity to obtain a good college education can help to improve society for generations to come. </p>
<p>And quite honestly, as a tax payer, I would rather see my tax dollars working to improve the poorer class than to subsidze the rich brats who think they are owed a free education.</p>
<p>NikkiL, a lot of what you say is quite true, but it still doesn’t mean that poor kids don’t go to college because they can’t afford it; to the contrary, it means that being poor may prevent them from getting to the point of even applying to college. I don’t think Jay Mathews would disagree with you at all.</p>
<p>I think some people are taking Mr. Mathew’s words and extrapolating them, giving them meanings he didn’t intend to convey in the least. Mr. Matthews is talking about a very specific type of student, and by omitting any one of his criteria it is easy to brand him as ignorant, but, for the record, here they are:</p>
<p>Gifted</p>
<p>Motivated</p>
<p>Kept out of college ONLY and SPECIFICALLY by a lack of money to pay for college</p>
<p>Many people who are attacking him are actually making the same point he is… the problem is preparing the students and making them aware of the ways available for them to attend college, not paying for it once a student has become a high achiever.</p>
<p>My point of view is that there are basically two curves of college admission: preparedness and ability to pay. Low income students are hampered by the effect their income and environment has on their preparedness… that is the crux of Mr. Matthews’ argument and I agree with. This is probably a flattened exponential curve… income correlating with preparedness. The other curve is ability to pay, and this is an upside down parabola… where the vertex represents a certain income where a family lives comfortably but is hamstrung by the costs of education and receives little aid because of their income level. </p>
<p>I have to confess that the above is extremely general… I tend to try to put nice smooth curves over anything, and I know that that is not always the case (for example, the preparedness curve probably drops off after a certain income level because the cost of travel and other expenses that aren’t usually covered by finaid becomes too great for the family to manage.) But that is, in general, how I view the current situation, and I think that Mr. Matthews shares my views… and it really applies to much more than just college. There is a tremendous amount of opportunity out there, and the single greatest factor keeping people from realizing that opportunity is education and awareness. Money is on the list, to be sure… but it pales in comparison to the latter two.</p>
<p>Not that I’m sensing that this will be an issue… but don’t hesitate to strike back if you find anything I’ve said inaccurate. I’m always open to criticism and new ideas.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=Nikkil]
Some of you need a HARD lesson in financial aid, finances, and the real-life world. Those who are underpriveledged due to finances typically do not have the resources necessary to maintain 3.0+ GPA during HS. They also are not fortunate enough to afford the study guides for SAT or ACT testing. They also are not provided the emotional and mental support to comprehend that education is important. They are kept home to babysit when mom or dad is too drunk or too high to come home. Some of these kids do not even have the proper tools needed to attempt studying. Ever try to focus on homework while your parent(s) were throwing a HUGE party in your living room? Its not that they do not want to become successful members of society…there just isn’t anyone to give them a hand up.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree with the point about GPA, but not so much about ACT/SAT prep. The best way to study for the SATs is by doing problems in the big blue book, and you can get that for free at the library or buy it for <$20. I’ve heard that people who read frequently do better on the reading SAT, although I don’t know which way the causation goes. Of course, if a student has to work than they will have less time to become avid reader. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In general it is not a good idea to go to a high school guidance counselor for advice on specific colleges because they have to help a diverse group of students to succeed. If a counselor has to convince students not to drop out then they are unlikely to have the time to become experts on college admissions. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The best solution here is to either simplify the admissions system or provide technical exemptions for students from disadvantaged backgrounds (like acceptance of one or two items completed incorrectly). </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>True. The problem is that liberals have tried to kill off meritocracy by making college admissions more “holistic”, and hence more complicated and unfair to students from disadvantaged backgrounds. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I have doubts about how common that is. But when it does happen it is probably caused by differences in motivation or course difficulty. (Based on personal experience I think that the challenge gap between 2 and 4 year schools is exaggerated, but I think few would doubt that it does exist).</p>
<p>NikkiL - you make some valid posts but I sort of disagree about the GPA. Poor kids are not going to go to prep schools. Unless they are pushed by their school they won’t be taking AP classes. they will mostly be taking College Prep and/or Honors courses and a kid who is “gifted and movtivated” will find a way to get good grades and a good GPA.</p>
<p>The underprivileged kids I have seen mostly have high GPA’s and lower SAT’s. This seems to hold up as low family income has a direct correlation to Low SAT scores.</p>
<p>I fully agree that the biggest barrier to NOT attending any college for a bright, motivated kid from a family without means is guidance. It can be done, someone just needs to show them the ropes.</p>
<p>speedo - not disputing you but something in the numbers is not adding up there. Perhaps the student didn’t qualify for a Pell grant?</p>