<p>justamom - the pell is included, but the problem is that the fees indicated in the
letter are much higher than what is listed online. The estimated cost of State College
A with books, additional fees, trans etc is listed as $19,400. At State College B.
$22,490. Unmet need at College B is listed at over $11,000. This is what low income
students receive in the mail from those colleges. When you receive that letter
in the mail, I’ll bet most low income families turn that down and head for the local
cc. I can’t find the letter from PSU, probably threw it away, too ridiculous.</p>
<p>The local cc is “college.”</p>
<p>speedo -
not to completely hijack this thread but a couple of things:</p>
<p>Here is the COA of tuition/fees, avg room & board for the PA state schools from 2008/2009:
[Cost</a> of Attendance by University 2007-08](<a href=“http://www.passhe.edu/executive/finance/Budget/Pages/Cost.aspx]Cost”>http://www.passhe.edu/executive/finance/Budget/Pages/Cost.aspx)</p>
<p>The tuition is the same everywhere but the room and board varies. Anyway for the sake of convience I picked Kutztown with a COA of $14581.40 for 2009-2010.</p>
<p>Books and spending money is not included but really, there is no reason a student can’t pay for these through working. Work study jobs are readily available on campus - if the student is proactive in finding one.</p>
<p>Perhaps this student hasn’t received state grant notification?
[PHEAA</a> - Estimated State Grant Awards](<a href=“http://www.pheaa.org/stategrants/estimated_awards.shtml]PHEAA”>http://www.pheaa.org/stategrants/estimated_awards.shtml)
PA is nortoriously slow in informing kids of their state grant awards.</p>
<p>A student who received a Pell grant should also get a state grant of about $3500 or so.</p>
<p>So again a PA student with $0 efc should get AT LEAST the following from State and Federal Sources:
~$5000 Pell
~3500 PHEAA
~3500 Sub Stafford</p>
<h2>~2000 Un Sub Stafford</h2>
<p>Total $14,000 - That is BEFORE a job or any other scholarships, parental contribution, SEOG grant and other special programs.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=bartleby]
Name a state and we’ll be able to talk about the situation there.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>See speedo’s example above.</p>
<p>In any case, a student who could have succeeded at a top university but who has to attend a lower-tier state university for financial reasons is still being significantly shortchanged. Generally, the education is going to be significantly weaker at a lower-tier state university than at a flagship state university or a top university. A degree from a lower-tier state university will also open fewer doors than a degree from a flagship state university or a top university.</p>
<p>Put another way, even if anyone can get a university degree from some university somewhere, the problem is not entirely solved.</p>
<p>Take3, what you say is true, but I would say that poor people have substantially better opportunities when it comes to getting college educations than they do when it comes to getting cars, houses, furniture, etc. In every case, rich people can get better ones.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=JustAMomOf4]
The tuition is the same everywhere but the room and board varies. Anyway for the sake of convience I picked Kutztown with a COA of $14581.40 for 2009-2010.</p>
<p>Books and spending money is not included but really, there is no reason a student can’t pay for these through working. Work study jobs are readily available on campus - if the student is proactive in finding one.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>The cost of books and supplies varies. But it can easily be as high as $1,500 per year.</p>
<p>Transportation - just between campus and home - can cost hundreds of dollars per year.</p>
<p>Some expenses other than room and board are necessary. For example, clothing must periodically be replaced and must (hopefully!) often be washed. Realistically, someone probably needs at least $200 per month over and above the cost of room and board.</p>
<p>Factoring in the cost of all of the above, at least the $19,400 figure cited above for COA is plausible. Even if $14,000 of grants and loans are available, the student still has to earn $5,400 per year in this case. Also, it’s likely that a student from a low-income background also has to pay their own way - buying their own food, etc. - during summers and academic breaks. This just adds to the amount of money the student has to earn by working.</p>
<p>Take3 - $1500 is easy to earn in a summer job
transportation - there are 14 state owned universities in PA. Find one closer to home - I bet every resident lives within 1-2 hrs of at least one. It’s also pretty easy to carpool home for breaks etc.</p>
<p>Also - don’t be so hard on state universities and community colleges. Many people have succeeded quite nicely after graduating from State U’s.</p>
<p>it’s always amazes me here on CC how, when it comes to the reality of
low income students, how many times you have to repeat yourself. It just
never sinks in. Justamom - I am looking at the actual paperwork from the
colleges, this is what they send people and what people make their decisions
based on. The unmet need for an income of just under $40,000 at those
particular state colleges (on the same level as Kutztown) is over $10,000.
Those are the numbers. I stand by my earlier comments that Mathews is
using one particular example to obscure the overwhelming trend in access
to higher ed. For him, and for many here on CC, the exception has become
the rule.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=Hunt]
Take3, what you say is true, but I would say that poor people have substantially better opportunities when it comes to getting college educations than they do when it comes to getting cars, houses, furniture, etc. In every case, rich people can get better ones.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>This problem does not solely impact the individual. With a lower-quality education, the person from a low-income background is less able to contribute to society.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=JustAMomOf4]
$1500 is easy to earn in a summer job
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>For the reasons noted above, the student would have to earn $5,400 ($19,400 COA minus $14,000 in aid.)</p>
<p>And again, some of the earnings from the summer job might have to go towards summer living expenses.</p>
<p>Also, finding even a minimum wage job in the current economy is far from guaranteed.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=JustAMomOf4]
transportation - there are 14 state owned universities in PA. Find one closer to home - I bet every resident lives within 1-2 hrs of at least one. It’s also pretty easy to carpool home for breaks etc.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>The university also has to offer the major the student would like to pursue. It’s less certain that a given program is offered within 2 hours of anyone living in PA.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=JustAMomOf4]
Also - don’t be so hard on state universities and community colleges. Many people have succeeded quite nicely after graduating from State U’s.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>My previous post stated, “lower-tier state university”. This was in response to a non-flagship public university being cited as a possibility. The real issue is whether a student has to attend a university which is significantly lower in academic quality than would otherwise have been possible.</p>
<p>I’m not hard on public universities in general. To the contrary, I believe that some are excellent. But universities (whether public or private) vary significantly in quality. Actually, whether the university is public or private is irrelevant. A student with financial issues could just as easily attend a private university for which they are at the extreme high end of the applicant pool - causing them to be awarded significant merit aid.</p>
<p>I also have a high opinion of community colleges in general. (See, for example, my comments about the College of DuPage in the Community Colleges subforum.) However, they are only a possibility for the first two years of college. It is ultimately necessary to transfer to a four-year school if one wishes to earn a Bachelor’s degree. This requires finding a way to pay for at least two years at a four-year university.</p>
<p>Some people do succeed despite having attended lower-tier universities. However, correlation does not prove causation. Put another way, these people may have succeeded despite a less rigorous education and a weaker academic reputation.</p>
<p>speedo - I recommend that if this particular student was not awarded the funds that I listed that he/she call the financial aid office and find out why.</p>
<p>take3:</p>
<p>We are supposed to be talking about “gifted and motivated” students. surely they would be able to secure employment at the local Wal-mart or McDonalds. If so motivated.</p>
<p>While some State U’s in PA - we are talking about the 14 state owed Universities don’t offer all the same programs - I am willing to stand by my statement for the most popular majors that students choose. From where I live there are 6 state owned universities within a 2 hour drive. For even those that are 3-4 hours away, the transportation cost is negligible.</p>
<p>The facts are actually out there if Mathews had bothered to check.
<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/adv-fact-sheet-CM_09april08.pdf[/url]”>Higher Education Professionals | College Board;
<p>college going rate high achievement low income 78%
college going rate high achievement high income 97%
college going rate low achievement low income 36%
college going rate low achievement high income 77%</p>
<p>It’s not a question of picking a tiny sample and generalizing, the
research has already been done.</p>
<p>That’s an interesting page from the College Board, speedo, but I don’t think you read it carefully enough. You imply that the difference between college attendance in the list you quote is solely due to the cost of college–that’s not what College Board cites the literature as saying.</p>
<p>Speedo-
97% of kids w/high income and high achievement go to college - makes sense.
78% of kids w/low income and high achievement go to college - is that low? Why didn’t the other 22% go? Was it because of money? Many middle income kids have to borrow their entire 4 year bill. The cost for low income kids with high achievement (all other things being equal) is less $$ than for middle income kids.<br>
Now for the last two stats: if kids are not college material(low achievement), why would anyone care if high income parents waste their money on this folly?</p>
<p>@JustAMomOf4: The unemployment rate for teenagers is 24.0% as of June 2009. Source: A Bureau of Labor Statistics press release, viewable at [url=<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm]Employment”>http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm]Employment</a> Situation Summary<a href=“The%20Bureau%20of%20Labor%20Statistics%20is%20part%20of%20the%20United%20States%20Department%20of%20Labor.”>/url</a></p>
<p>For comparison purposes, the unemployment rate during the economic depression of the 1930’s ranged from approximately 15% to 25%.</p>
<p>If teenagers currently have an unemployment rate comparable to the worst years of the 1930’s depression, it is likely that they will have difficulty finding summer jobs even if they are gifted and motivated.</p>
<p>That’s good research, Speedo. But that paper raises one big question for me: how is achievement defined? Is the top category of achievement simply the top quartile? If that is the case, there are a lot of psychologists who don’t think that someone with an IQ in the 75th percentile (average SATs) should be going to college for four years. </p>
<p>So the problem might not be that too few poor kids are going to college, it might be that too many rich kids are going to college. </p>
<p>
<a href=“http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/Picture-3-757753.png[/img]”>http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/Picture-3-757753.png
![http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/Picture-3-757753.png[/img]](http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/Picture-3-757753.png%5B/img%5D){kind=link}
</a></p>
<p>If that is the case than the problem is not caused by a lack of information among parents and students, rather it is caused by a system that overemphasizes credentials.</p>
<p>hunt, I don’t believe I implied that cost was the sole factor, but I certainly
suspect that cost is a significant factor. If that finaid package comes back
and the unmet need is $1500 or even $5,000 rather than 10 grand, I think
it would make a difference in the numbers, but I don’t know of any research
to prove that although there’s tons of stories on the internet, " 21 of 36
Boston valedictorians had unmet need high enough…" etc, etc.</p>
<p>As for BrainCramp , there has been lots of speculation that the current college
access crisis is worse for middle class families just above the Pell grant level, but
I haven’t seen any definitive studies on that. As for the cost for lower income kids
being lower than middle class, that’s obviously true, but can they afford to pay it
is another question. Only a very small percentage of very high achieving poor kids.
the ones Mathews is talking about, ever get the loan free deals. I bet that it’s less
than 1% of the low income group. Looks good for the colleges but statistically, probably
insignificant.</p>
<p>I wish he’d pay for my college, after deciding to stay at Purdue and filling out my loan application. I was told my dad couldn’t be my cosigner so that basically is screwing my over from going back to Purdue… God if only money came falling down like leafs in the fall.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE=Jimgotkp]
I was told my dad couldn’t be my cosigner
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>I’m sorry to hear about your situation.</p>
<p>This relates to another barrier to low-income students paying for university. Traditional-aged students usually need a cosigner for student loans. But the parents in a low-income family are unlikely to be accepted as cosigners. So a low-income student is probably unable to take out student loans except for Federally funded loans.</p>
<p>“In any case, a student who could have succeeded at a top university but who has to attend a lower-tier state university for financial reasons is still being significantly shortchanged.”</p>
<p>God, you guys change your arguments quickly. I thought you all were complaining that top students will get the aid they need from top universities but B students can’t afford college.</p>
<p>“Traditional-aged students usually need a cosigner for student loans.”</p>
<p>I’m fairly sure that’s not true in the case of government loans.</p>