<p>I'm posting this in the parents forum because parents are probably more knowledge with this. </p>
<p>I want to be a high school Physics + Chem teacher (though I wouldn't mind teaching math or CS), but it'd be dumb of me not to have backup plans just in case I change my mind or something. </p>
<p>To keep this short, which has a better job prospect: A double major in Physics and Comp Sci and a minor in Chem OR a double major in Chem and Comp Sci and a minor in Physics?</p>
<p>Any of these combo would be fine. Teachers, especially good science teachers are desperately in shortage.</p>
<p>I concur with kxc, so go with whatever interests you more. If you are thinking of jobs outside of teaching, perhaps a slight nod to the Chem/Comp Sci and a minor in physics. </p>
<p>Here’s something for you to consider, with those major/minors in play. Check out the Integrated Science Program at Northwestern University. My son is a freshman in the program and is enjoying it (although it’s a lot of work; ISPers get great respect from the engineering majors on that campus.) ISP is specifically designed to integrate math with the sciences and makes it easy to double major, with a minor added, in the areas you are looking at. Additionally, the chemistry department at NU is usually in the top five in the country (caveat: those rankings are based on the graduate programs.)</p>
<p>Yes. If not wanting to teach, Chemistry is a bit more practical in searching for a job. Yes. NW is a great school to get into.</p>
<p>The Computer Science field is pretty decent in terms of jobs and starting salary in my experience. </p>
<p>A reality check though - you might find that doing a double major in physics and CS plus a minor in chem is pretty undoable - at least at a college with a rigorous program. A double of CS with anything can be very difficult because CS can take more effort than most other majors in terms of number of courses needed, time expended doing HW, and the difficulty of the material. Physics and chem are not lightweight majors/minors either. Doing a double Chem+CS and a hysics minor would also be very difficult. Certainly don’t expect to do a double major in physics+CS along with a minor in chem in 4 years.</p>
<p>I think you should research what it actually would mean to double/minor in these subjects at whatever colleges you’re considering and be prepared to modify your plans. Something more practical would be to forget the double major, which is of dubious value anyway, and major in one of these subjects and possibly minor in one of the others. You don’t need to commit to all of that now anyway - you can start with one major in mind and then see what it’ll take to add a minor (or maybe even a second major) once you’ve experienced your first major. Keep in mind that at many colleges CS has a high attrition rate as it is once people find out how difficult it can be and how much work it takes. Don’t forget that there are only so many hours in the day and usually barely enough for many CS majors.</p>
<p>I like your enthusiasm though.</p>
<p>Thanks for the great replies so far!</p>
<p>Just to clarify, I’m currently a first year student in Engineering, though I want to switch into the sciences next year. I’m planning to switch out because my school has a pretty rigid Engineering program that doesn’t allow double majoring, but I’d prefer being in a more flexible program that would allow to spread out my courses more. </p>
<p>At my school, Engineering is generally considered harder than Science programs due to the extra course load, so I’m not too concerned about the workload. </p>
<p>I enjoy both Physics and Chemistry at the moment, so quite frankly, which one I like more would depend on which profs I get. And it is a requirement at my school to double major (or do a major and two minors, though it appears to me that it’d be more useful to have a double major than a major with two minors).</p>
<p>This is pretty late, but I’m wondering why you’d go into computer science in the first place if you want to be a science teacher. Major in your preferred science and minor in education. I’d vote for chemistry, simply because (at least at my school) chemistry seemed more important to the school, since we only had one physics teacher and maybe 3 chem teachers.</p>
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<p>Most career surveys indicate worse job prospects for chemistry than physics (and both are worse than computer science right now, but computer science can have great booms and busts), though physics majors often end up in alternative jobs like engineering, computer software, finance, etc…</p>
<p>For someone who really likes chemistry, chemical engineering may be worth a look, since it offers better industrial job prospects than chemistry.</p>
<p>You need to figure out your priorities. To be a good HS science teacher you need to be in the School of Education (or its equivalent at your school) and be sure you get the proper courses, including student teaching, for licensure. A friend’s son got an education degree from Emory but it is useless as they don’t offer the requisite student teaching. Within the School of Education you can find the courses required for science teachers- they may not be a full chemistry or physics major but include enough of both to be well versed in them. Once you figure out the logistics of taking the required courses see how many computer science courses you can take. Remember- to teach you need a state license, not just a major in a science. Many HS’s will want someone with the flexibility to teach more than just one physical science subject- its a good thing you like both chemistry and physics.</p>
<p>Remember that taking more than the minimum required classes for any major is likely to make you better prepared for a job in that field- eg more computer science classes will make you a better job prospect in that field.You may need a 5th year of college to cover all of the bases you envision. A Chemistry major requires much more lab time than computer science or physics. A major is “easy” or “difficult” based on ability and interest- none of those you mention is inherently more/less difficult.</p>
<p>Computer ‘science’ jobs is all about (a) getting the Google and Microsoft jobs if one is lucky or good enough to get into the top schools that such companies recruit at and (b) having enough useful (read, business oriented) coursework to allow one to get a job with traditional IT or software type jobs. </p>
<p>(a) is a function of the CC fairies smiling favorably upon graduation from the usual schools, and (b) is luck-of-the-draw. I see lots of schools still using Java, good luck with that in the ‘real’ world :-). (b) has been around for ever - many years ago Cajun State U. threw out a perfectly functioning Multics system and bought an IBM mainframe because the number one complaint from our graduates was ‘no mainframe experience’. </p>
<p>I have a couple degrees in Comp Sci and nearly 30 years software development experience, still coding for a living, and would not consider getting into the field right now. It’s too congested, things change so rapidly and employers are too stuck up on versionitis to make landing a job problematic, and that’s before the H1B’s and outsourcing even come into the picture.</p>
<p>When one can find programmers for $15/hr talks of grandiose careers need a bit of reality checking. Mrs. Turbo was in the recruiting circuit not too long ago and some offers were less than what she was making in 1998… There is great money if one has the right versions of the right software on their resume (she did) and little money otherwise.</p>
<p>BTW, Computer Science is pretty easy if one has ‘the gift’. Most Comp Sci people don’t. It’s ‘the gift’ that explains stunning productivity differences between different individuals (we’re talking 10 to 1 easily).</p>
<p>Turbo93 - My son is a CS major in the Bay Area and had a great freshman internship making over $25 an hour - already has multiple offers for sophomore summer internships from silicon valley co’s. Seems like they need all the CS grads they can find right now. We are very optimistic about his future… not sure why you’re steering kids away from one of the few fields these days that are actually hiring 20-somethings.</p>
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<p>There are a lot of good software development jobs that are not at Google or Microsoft, and not “business IT” type jobs (which are often not very technical, and that often shows in the performance of corporate IT departments). And the employers’ recruiting targets often include local schools not of great prestige (e.g. from Silicon Valley employers, San Jose State University, Santa Clara University, University of California at Santa Cruz), and the definition of “top schools” that many employers will travel to may be larger than what many would assume.</p>
<p>However, the industry does go through booms and busts. If you go into the industry, save your money during the booms so that you can ride out the busts.</p>
<p>The (good) job prospects probably also vary greatly by region. Silicon Valley? Plenty of employers looking for CS graduates and experienced software developers. Some other places? Probably mostly just “business IT” jobs that are less interesting.</p>
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<p>Yes, this is true. Obviously, those closer to the 1 than the 10 (or more) will face much worse prospects than those closer to the 10 (or more).</p>
<p>@Mom483, it may be hard for Comp Sci people to comprehend this, but there’s people actually living and working in FlyOver Country ™ that get offered $30/hr to do application support, simply because not everyone can or will relocate to ‘where the jobs are’.</p>
<p>I am constantly being bugged by recruiters to move to the Silicon Valley myself. But, while salaries and opportunities there are great, the salary difference is nowhere near enough to cover the difference in cost of living and other things. In addition, 52 year olds there are typically expected to lead a team of Indian developers over NetMeeting and conference calls, not do real work themselves; not to mention the hours expected (again, hard to believe, but I do work 40 hours a week) and stress and all that. Not to mention that we’re actually doing cutting edge consumer electronics work - primarily by 40-50 year olds :-)).</p>
<p>Here in FlyOver Country, in a city of a million plus people, the engineering job market is generally bad thanks to lots of layoffs, and the IT market is pretty bad. We’re not as bad as California yet for all workers (not just doe-eyed interns) but we’re getting there.</p>
<p>Booms and busts are great when you’re 22 years old and can afford to wait tables if Ruby On Rails or Springs falls in disfavor. When you’re 32 with a mortgage and a kid or two, or 42, or 52, things look WAY different.</p>
<p>The 22 year olds need to understand what it takes to stay employed and current at 52.</p>
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<p>Where I work, people in their 50s do real work as experienced individual contributors. Perhaps what you are seeing is that only “low end” work is being done in your region, which means poor job opportunities for you and others in your region, and a lot of offshore outsourcing to low end contractors in India.</p>
<p>That said, there is a widespread feeling that there is age discrimination against older workers, but it is not limited to the computer industry. However, the opaqueness (to the applicant and other outside observers) of hiring practices makes it difficult to tell the difference between actual age discrimination and “sour gripes” complaining by poorly qualified applicants.</p>
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<p>However, booms and busts are not unique to the computer industry. Just ask any civil engineering, architect, construction worker, mortgage broker, or real estate agent about the last decade. In any case, personal austerity – living below your means – is necessary in an age of economic uncertainty and decline, especially as you will personally bear more costs through either increased taxes or personally bearing more costs where government cuts back on services.</p>
<p>I would not call what we do ‘low end’ considering we have a good market share in a cutthroat market and our stuff is fairly high tech (embedded Linux based consumer multimedia devices in my division). Many of my coworkers have fallen for the Siren’s call of working for the competition in more exciting places, and in our industry at least, the idea that anyone over the age of 40 will actually do real engineering work is not popular. </p>
<p>I do not mean disrespect, but perhaps you’re working at a level where outsourcing is an abstraction, or an exercise done on an Excel worksheet. To the minions doing the work, outsourcing is seeing your company go from 7 or 8 buildings to 1 and hanging on for dear life. </p>
<p>Age discrimination is pretty straightforward, and easy to justify especially for companies that have ‘legacy costs’ such as pensions. If one survives a couple of rounds of layoffs, it’s fairly easy to see. What is more difficult to do is to act upon it. You see, companies don’t lay off people in one big bang cut; there’s ‘rounds’. The ‘chaff’ or low performers are goners after the first round usually, and nobody is really surprised. Get much beyond round 2 or 3, and it’s like the Elite 8 in the NCAA - it’s anyone’s guess. </p>
<p>The computer industry is unique in that it tends to create its own booms and busts, or amplify the effects of market booms and busts by well-timed introduction (or deprecation) of technologies for no apparent reason. I could give you examples but we’d be here for days. Back in the good days, where architects and engineers and the like had booms and busts, we did not. We spent a few weeks or months learning the new technologies and went on coding. Since the mid 90’s at least, it has all been ‘do you know version 4.0 of GeeWhiz, or only 3.0?’… </p>
<p>Again, I wonder if your view is from a level that is detached from the trenches, or perhaps my view appears to have been tainted by attending too many go-away lunches for laid off - though competent and productive - coworkers;</p>
<p>So, are there even any safe majors anymore? I’m going into computer science since it seems like one of the safe majors that won’t kill me…as you can tell from my silly username, I’m an artist/singer, but there’s so little you can do with that kind of talent. Even now the nursing field’s being flooded. </p>
<p>Out of curiosity, is there any hope for anyone that might want to stick to New England?</p>
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<p>The current company that I work at has not outsourced software development that was done in the US overseas, though there are overseas sites in rich countries from acquired companies.</p>
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<p>Defined benefit pension costs are not an issue at many companies that never had them (and the “legacy costs” are an issue only at companies that made pension promises but underfunded them). Medical insurance costs could be an incentive for age discrimination, though.</p>
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<p>Incorrect.</p>
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<p>I have worked at companies like that in the past, and many of my co-workers have also. Fortunately, there are companies not like that. But perhaps not in your region, so it is easy to see why you would be cynical about the industry that you see in your region.</p>
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<p>There are no completely safe lines of work, or college majors, if you mean something that you can do for 40 or 50 years and then retire without ever worrying about your employer going out of business or your work no longer being useful to anyone else or even temporary economic or sector downturns.</p>
<p>However, some lines of work can be good or bad based on economic or sector cycles, but others just go between bad and worse.</p>
<p>Now, I will have to warn you. Computer Science requires an unique mind. It is not for everyone. I know kids that have a 4.0 GPA that suffer in CS while even kids with a 2.0 will excel at it. It is just a different way of thinking. I believe you have to be “born” with it. Now, many will disagree with me, but CS is like an art form. Not everyone can just choose to become a computer scientist. Sure, you may learn to program, but to go beyond that, it really takes someone special. That is why you do not see a million computer scientists. Sure, you may get by getting decent grades in CS, you won’t be able to compete with kids like me that have programmed as a hobby since they were 11. You just have to love it IMHO. </p>
<p>I really can not understand people that choose to major in CS if they never had any experience programming before. It is just so different from anything. Perhaps I come off as an elitist, but I am just that kind of guy that spend the whole day just programming, trying to make the same code with the same functionality just rum faster and more efficiently.</p>
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<p>Few people working in larger size tech companies can claim the above… Unfortunately, for the vast majority of technology workers, outsourcing is a stark reality with few sectors that are unaffected.</p>