Job Search Advice Pls - 8 yrs out of law school

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>I’ve always gotten great advice from the parents here over the years, so I thought I’d post again though under a new name. Sorry in advance for the length. What advice would you give your ~ 30 yr old S/D or to your 30 yr old self if this were you (in this new economy)? Especially interested in law/business parents out there.</p>

<p>I was Penn undergrad (finance) and then went to a T-14 law school; basically I have the academic resume that most here covet with name schools, honors etc. Went straight through school so no work experience before law other than minor college internships. Went from law school to NYC biglaw where I did well for a lot of years until my department (commercial litigation) imploded and now I basically have a few months left to get out before I’m left with a resume gap. Problem is I have been looking for a year and nothing.</p>

<p>I’m not excluding any options -- another firm, in-house, or government. I have gotten a decent number of interviews but can’t seal the deal anywhere. I have become the queen of making it to the top 2 and then getting the “sorry -- we loved you, but there was someone else [with 20 yrs more experience; an internal candidate etc.]. If we had 2 spots, we’d take you.” I am not getting the sense that it’s an interviewing problem; I have clicked with almost everyone and certain rejections have come with personal calls/emails stating the above, not just form letters.</p>

<p>I am freaking out at this point and just starting to give up. The mental strain of running around, networking, finding things to apply for, apply and doing interviews -- sometimes up to 5-6 rounds before a rejection -- while still trying to do my work for a firm that has told me to go is getting to me and I can’t take anymore. But the clock is also ticking.</p>

<p>Litigators don’t transition into business as directly as corporate attys do so the options are more limited. Thing is -- firms just aren’t interested in me because they have their own senior associates that they’re trying to push out bc the economic problems are rampant throughout the industry and they don’t want to make new partners; as for smaller firms -- I don’t know if I want to go to Smith & Jones -- the work will be less interesting (to me), what if I don’t make partner there, and what if I want to move cities -- I can’t seem to land a job from a top national firm, how will it work from a no name firm? And I don’t want to stay in NYC and would rather be in another (smaller) northeastern city; I have been trying there (and also NYC) and it’s been impossible.</p>

<p>Part of me is thinking -- was litigation just a bad choice and should I get out into the business world while I’m still “young.” If yes, how? Is anyone going to care that I went to Wharton about a million yrs ago? How do I sell that?</p>

<p>I had always said if I wasn’t going to be a partner at a big firm, I wanted to be on the business operations side but now that just seems like a dumb thing I said as a kid, as I look at postings and frankly, I haven’t done financial analysis for the last 4-10 yrs like my peers. Who would give me a chance and where do I look?</p>

<p>All I know is I can’t spend my life feeling this uncertainty and having an unmarketable skill set. At least in business, I feel like there are lots more “managerial” jobs -- that don’t require making partner/managing director/sharing profit etc. I feel like I will always be thought of as a good “worker bee” in law but no one will ever want me to be a partner in their firm -- which means, I’ll have no stability unless I can land in gov't, which is proving to be impossible given the sheer number of attys in DC and sequester issues.</p>

<p>My own parents have been great about this and tell me that in this new economy people shift careers all the time, but I don’t know about leaving behind law (to go compete with the millions of MBAs, when I don't have one) and would like some outside opinions. WWYD? (Sorry for how long and anxiety ridden this is.)</p>

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<p>I suggest also posting this in the law school forum, or perhaps asking a moderator to move the thread there - several posters in that forum are attorneys with many years of experience, and they’ll probably have some practical advice for you. [Law</a> School - College Confidential](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/]Law”>Law School - College Confidential Forums)</p>

3

<p>Sorry you are going through this. It is a tough, tough market for lawyers. I really do think with your resume that you WILL get a job- but it can take some time. Look at the listings on the ACC (American Corporate Counsel) website. You don’t need to be a member to see the job listings. There are always some good in-house listings there. Also, and you probably have done this, make sure you are hooked up with some top legal recruiters. You might need to be very flexible geographically- some of the top regional firms in cities like Dallas, Nashville, Charlotte, Indianapolis etc might grab you up quickly. Leverage your skills- you weren’t just a litigator. You know how to negotiate, analyze, dig through data etc. Customize your resume a little for each posting to which you respond. </p>

<p>Keep your chin up. You sound like an excellent candidate. It just takes time. We just hired a lawyer at my company and we had incredible resumes. We could have filled the job with about 20 great candidates.</p>

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<p>Years ago, I went from the litigation department at a large (regional) firm to an in-house corporate position. That’s what I suggest you look for. I agree with MomofWildChild - you will have to be flexible from a geographical standpoint. Also, look for roles that require managing outside counsel. With your litigation background, that would be a good fit. Good luck - you’ll get there.</p>

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<p>Law firms in Florida specializing in foreclosures or in collections are hiring lawyers.</p>

6

<p>A couple of questions,
What kind of separation pkg are you getting and does it include outplacement?</p>

<p>If you can afford a break, then take it and use it to think about your options. Discuss them with mentors, trusted friends and an outplacement counselor if one is available.
This is a new economy and it will never be what it was so try to get used to the idea of a living without the guarantee of a secure future. At the risk of being Debbie downer, you may not always have a job and your income will probably fluctuate. But this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it does give you more flexibility and choices and you end up not allowing yourself to be sucked dry by some company.</p>

<p>You interview well so you will get a job. It just takes time sometimes. If you like your job and it pays well and there are jobs out there, I would stay the course. If you think the industry is shrinking and you will not be able to get a position in the future than you’ll be forced to switch course. If that is the case, better now than latter. I don’t know your skill set and your temperament so I can’t advise on what that switch should be. You clearly value a very high paying job and not every industry offers that so at least your options are somewhat narrowed.
My one piece of advise on your next position, negotiate hard to get the highest compensation and highest level band that you can squeeze out of them. It makes a big difference in future jobs within and outside that company. Getting the job is part one, negotiating salary and job title is part two.</p>

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<p>OP - you will get a job; try not to freak out (I know it’s hard). I would try to approach new opportunities not with the thinking that “I should have chosen the corporate dept.” at your NYC firm, but with the mindset that your litigation experience in a large multi-faceted law firm has exposed you to a real variety of work. And it has. I suspect you know a lot more about the corporate and business side of things than you realize. And don’t be afraid to play up Wharton and the “commercial” side of your commercial litigation experience. It’s not like you have been chasing ambulances!</p>

<p>I would recommend focusing on in-house positions. I can tell you from years of experience that your interest and motivation to be involved in the business side of things will be of great benefit if you can find a spot in a mid-to-large in-house legal department of a publicly-traded corporation. You might find that you eventually transition out of the legal stuff altogether. You don’t have to be afraid of really playing up your business acumen and desire to become involved in the business/finance stuff when interviewing at a large company; they will embrace it.</p>

<p>I’m not clear on how you’re going about your job search, but if you haven’t hooked up with a good legal recruiter in a few different cities, I would highly recommend you do so. They are always looking for top quality candidates, and you definitely are one. (If you PM me, I can give you the name of a terrific recruiter in the Boston area). The employer pays them, not you. Your willingness to relocate and not necessarily be in a major city (but somewhere near one, usually, for the big companies) is a huge plus. Also make sure you are perusing multiple states’ Lawyers Weekly issues; I also have found great listings on a few employment websites I am happy to share with you by PM as well.</p>

<p>Keep smiling! It’s nice that you at least still enjoy being a lawyer, and don’t want to toss it all and go surfing! (well, maybe you do, but that’s okay) :)</p>

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<p>I’m wondering if you have given thought to whether you want a family and/or how you’d like the next 10 years to go? Do you want to be a suburban mom and lawyer or are you happy being a big city litigator without? That answer may hold some insight for you. </p>

<p>I left a large local firm at 34 for a much slower/lower pay government position because I was recently married, wanted kids and was having trouble staying pregnant. I didn’t have the time or energy for fertility related hooha at a litigation firm. I also knew that I wasn’t likely to want the “nanny” solution for time management with a small child once I got pregnant.</p>

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<p>Ditto what TempeMom said. I left big city large firm Litigation Dept just before birth of our second child for what was going to be six months … and decided that taking a break was wonderful and six months became five years. On purpose. During that time, my whole perspective shifted from the crazy 24/7 life of a litigator to the much happier and calmer life (albeit less affluent, but that too was a choice) of someone NOT working at a big city, big firm with multi-national clients and gigantic damages cases. Ultimately, I found a whole different area of law, opened my own firm, learned many skills that are never taught at law school or in big firms, and discovered that one should never say never (have my own firm? never!). The only time I have a twinge of regret is when I read about the jobs that some of my law school (top 10) classmates are doing, and then I remember that even though they may have more prestige and money, that doesn’t mean they are happier. </p>

<p>Assuming tho that you may not want to follow that untraditional path, two suggestions not yet made above. First, get in touch with the Placement Office at your law school. They likely have a bunch of contacts you can mine in law and corporate worlds. Ditto the Alumni Association of your law school. Check out the alum magazines to see where alums are General Counsel or in other top positions. From experience, I believe that alums like to hire other alums whenever possible. Could be a great source of leads. Good luck in your quest. You may not think so right this seond, but I promise it will work all work out, even if in ways that right now you cannot even imagine.</p>

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<p>Have you reached out to the career center for your law school? I know that my law school was happy to assist alums and would review resumes, give frank feedback about interviewing skills, double-check references to make they’re saying the right things and generally provide advice and support.</p>

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<p>I agree with you that it will be hard for you to transition to a national firm unless perhaps a partner from your firm is willing to make the connections for you. I know several 3rd-5th year associates who successfully transitioned laterally to other biglaw firms but many are reluctant to hire someone so close to partnership track. Don’t despair, concentrate on looking at smaller regional firms that will value your biglaw experience especially if you are willing to relocate outside the NE.
Besides your law school career center, take a look at job postings at Penn too. Good luck.</p>

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<p>I am sorry that I am not a lawyer or any corporate type you are looking for, cannot provide advice as such. However, during my search to start a small business, I had encountered several big law firm or corporate type. They, like you, were also freaked out by not able to find a job following a successful career. </p>

<p>What they did was buying into a franchise business such as McDonals. I use McDonals as an example because it is well recognized brand, but it would cost well over $1 million to buy a franchise like that so it is a bad example for a beginner. Nevertheless, there are thousands franchises to choose from and they all require you roll up the sleeves and get down and dirty.</p>

<p>I am not sure you are going to that extreme, but just a thought.</p>

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<p>If you’re open to a possible career change (3 months of retraining), my cousin sent me this: </p>

<p>video: [What</a> most schools don’t teach - YouTube](<a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube)
article: [Coding</a> boot camps promise to launch tech careers](<a href=“Coding boot camps promise to launch tech careers”>Coding boot camps promise to launch tech careers)</p>

<p>You’d have the credentials to get accepted and the starting salaries are quite high (up to $100K).</p>

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<p>Thank you for all the responses so far – I’ll respond broadly to the questions posed. When I started this search about a year ago – my goal was exactly what’s been said here – to leverage my corporate litigation experience and finance background into a corporate counsel type of in-house position so that I could diversify out my background and possibly even step into a corporate (non-legal) role eventually. Well that hasn’t worked out; most companies see a litigator as a litigator, regardless of how commercial your background may be. Some companies see litigation on your resume and won’t even interview you unless they have a pure litigation opening; others have granted a courtesy interview or said the whole “we really think financial litigators are quick can get up to speed on anything corporate” but at the end of the day, they hire a corporate associate. There are enough people out there with the exact right skillset for any job that no one is willing to buy the fact that I am capable of learning the job - when they have candidates who already know it.</p>

<p>I have been selling the Wharton thing and in the processes where I have gotten really far – I feel like that and my ease with quantitative concepts is what has differentiated me from other candidates.</p>

<p>In terms of geography – I would love to move out of NYC and live a “normal” life so I have been looking at suburban companies too, but I do have to stay on the Boston to Northern Virginia corridor for family/personal reasons; I could consider Charlotte or Atlanta possibly but I am not in a position where I could move to a regional firm in Tulsa (nor do I think they would buy any reason for me wanting to be there).</p>

<p>I guess when you’ve been in biglaw in the partner race for so long, you see this whole thing as a race – must make partner; if I don’t make partner, must make a quick move to another firm where I can make it etc. There has never been a moment to stop and breathe.</p>

<p>While I am feeling desperate to get out (terrible morale as you’d imagine) and maybe should be willing to take ANYTHING – I feel like I at least want a job that I will somewhat enjoy – i.e. one that uses my business/financial/commercial skill set. Those are really the only parts of law that I enjoy, and I really don’t find a lot of things interesting/enjoyable/tolerable that other people do so I can’t even bring myself to apply for non-commercial positions. </p>

<p>Anyone survived a long job search? It’s exhausting between networking, finding things to apply for, applying, prepping for interviews, interviewing, and getting rejected. I so just want to take a break, but I find myself not even being able to take a weekend off (at least from poking around for opportunities) because when I do I feel like “the clock is ticking, I’m wasting time.” </p>

<p>Thanks for your thoughts so far. Definitely happy to hear more.</p>

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<p>To respond to another comment enough – while I am applying to national firms (through many useless headhunters and one good one), I’m not getting far and frankly I don’t even know that I want it. I feel like any national firm that is hiring is doing so because it’s lost its own senior associates, has a big case, and needs seniors to work on it. That’s all fine and great but 3 yrs from now when it’s time for them to talk partnership, they’ll be quick to say “you’re a great worker bee but we’re not looking to make more partners.” Part of me thinks if I’m going to leave this profession altogether or change my practice or whatever, it’s better to do it sooner rather than later; why delay the inevitable for a few more years?</p>

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<p>It would be a big pay cut, but have you thought of applying to your state AG’s office? Your background would be a plus, and you’d have a chance to do some very interesting work.</p>

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<p>I am a headhunter in the DC/Baltimore market. You are right that it is really difficult to transition as a litigator into a non-litigation role, either in a law firm or a corporation. Personally, I think many firms and companies are short sighted in this regard but short sightedness is plentiful in the legal job market. There are lots of commercial litigators on the market right now so you have to do everything just right to land the job you want. Do you feel you are getting proper interview preparation from the recruiters you’re using?</p>

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<p>I know a lot of attorneys who have had to make career transitions in the last several years (not of their own volition), and I truly wish you the best. I’m sure that you’re aching with worry. You need to remember, though, that there is always some job out there that would have you in an instant. You may not WANT that job, but you could have one any time you want one.</p>

<p>I do think that you need to be geographically flexible. For example, I know of in house job openings in cities like Salt Lake City, Oklahoma City and Des Moines that have gone unfilled for over six months because the companies are having a tough time finding qualified candidates to take those jobs. Perhaps consider taking a job wherever it may be with the knowledge that you may move again some time later. Who knows? You may end up loving your adopted city!</p>

<p>If you do want to pursue opportunities on the business side or as corporate counsel, be sure to tailor your resume to those positions. Instead of a traditional resume, you may want to use a skills-based format that focuses on your transferable skills. Make sure that your give potential employers a reason to consider you rather than excuses to discount you.</p>

<p>Have you considered opening a solo practice? You never know where that could lead.</p>

<p>To the extent possible, prepare for the worst - a period of unemployment. Take a look at your fixed costs and discretionary spending. See what you can do to live as minimally as possible in the event that you don’t have any income coming in for a while. </p>

<p>Rest assured, you will find a job. They are out there.</p>

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<p>“I guess when you’ve been in biglaw in the partner race for so long, you see this whole thing as a race – must make partner; if I don’t make partner, must make a quick move to another firm where I can make it etc. There has never been a moment to stop and breathe.”</p>

<p>Back in 2006 (as I started approaching partnerworld), I looked at the entire picture and said:</p>

<p>“Well, I had better jump now before I’m pushed either now or later as a fake partner.”</p>

<p>Not that I have any career security. But at least I’m not on the associate scrapheap conveyor belt.</p>

<p>I used family contacts <em>before</em> there was any reason for mass panic. And I also took a 40% pay cut but long term, I figured that I was in trouble.</p>

<p>I actually <em>(semi-)regret</em> this decision because I would have snagged a very nice book of business, <em>however</em> that is only because a partner made a really stupid move and the firm kept the client, which would have then probably landed in <em>my</em> lap. However, that’s neither here nor there, since it would never have occurred to me that someone would have done something as profoundly stupid as he did. </p>

<p>What’s funny in law is that you see people do things that make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Generally, they are making very emotional decisions that are completely devoid of logic to the point where it’s basically a form of shooting yourself in the foot on purpose.</p>

<p>I’m going to check with one of my litigator friends who was tossed on the associate scrapheap about 18 months ago to see what life is like in the Bos-Wash corridor these days. Maybe he knows something, although he had to small law himself to survive (first he tried DC, which failed).</p>

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<p>I am a “law/business parent”. You have been given some very good advice here. If you were my 30 year old son or daughter, I would advise a lot of the same things already said:</p>

<p>-Consider where you want to be in 5-10 years. Will you want to slow down/work less hours and start a family, or do you want to continue at this current pace in your career? (Obviously there is no right or wrong answer here. It’s totally a personal decision.)
-Continue to network and get the word out to everyone that you are looking (not just online networking, but talk to people…old classmates, previous coworkers, family, friends, etc.)
-Utilize your Penn placement office as well as your law school’s placement office to see if they have anything.
-Watch current spending. Buy only what you need and sock away as much $ as possible these next few months. (I know this can be challenging in NYC!)
-Tailor your r</p>