Juniors- Words of Wisdom!

College Search & Selection
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<p>College-bound juniors...What you need to know:</p>

<p>(1) The PERSONAL QUALITIES (intelligence, motivation, character, etc.) you bring with you to college are, without question, the #1 determinant of how successful you'll be in your chosen profession. WHERE you go to college has less to do with your success.</p>

<p>Example: A student who is accepted at both Harvard and Penn State chooses to go to Penn State. 20 years down the road, professionally speaking, that student will be just as successful having graduated from Penn State as he would have been had he graduated from Harvard, due to his outstanding personal attributes.</p>

<p>This holds true because it's the STUDENT (and the qualities he possesses), NOT the college, that determines one's success. If someone tries convince you otherwise, simply ask them to prove it. No such proof exists!</p>

<p>It's been said that it's not WHAT the Ivy League colleges are teaching that makes their graduates so successful...........It's WHO they are teaching.</p>

<p>The students sitting in Ivy League classrooms would be equally successful whether they graduate from Harvard or St. Lawrence.</p>

<p>For a research study that proves what I say, check this out:
<a href="http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/%7Emcguire/worth_college_leagues.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/~mcguire/worth_college_leagues.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>(2) Choose a college where you'll be CHALLENGED. It's imperative that you experience academic growth in college. Remember, you can be challenged at a wide range of colleges, not just at the "elite" ones.</p>

<p>(3) Pick a college that is a good "fit" for you academically, socially and otherwise. The most important thing to look for in a college is a place where you'll feel "CONNECTED" to the institution, academically and socially.</p>

<p>You also want to end up at a school were you'll SUCCEED ACADEMICALLY, FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF, and NOT FEEL STRESSED-OUT all the time. Chances are, if you feel "beaten down" and anxious during your entire four years on campus, you'll probably begin to feel as though that is how life is meant to be, and will likely become an anxious adult.</p>

<p>(4) Be sure to set goals that are REALISTIC and ATTAINABLE. Also, be sure that the goals you set are YOURS. Don't set certain goals just to impress or please others.</p>

<p>(5) Apply to schools that are REALLY "YOU." In other words, if you have to go through undue stress and misery simply to "engineer" yourself into the type of applicant that's acceptable to a particular school (padding your list of extracurriculars, spending countless hours in SAT prep courses, etc.), you may want to think twice about applying there. If a college doesn't accept you for WHO YOU REALLY ARE, is it truly a good "fit" for you?</p>

<p>(6) Other than listening to professionals such as your college counselor, try your best to "TUNE OUT" SUGGESTIONS FROM OTHERS regarding specific colleges. Chances are, other students, parents, aunts, uncles, other adults, etc. probably know NO MORE (OR MAYBE LESS) about colleges than you do. Also, keep in mind that you are a UNIQUE individual, and what's good for one person may be a poor choice for you.</p>

<p>(7) Don't make the "80/20" mistake. This is where students spend 80% of their time exploring schools that are unrealistic and/or a poor fit, and only 20% researching schools that are truly good and realistic choices.</p>

<p>It should be the other way around: Spend 80% of your time looking at good and realistic choices, and 20% exploring the less realistic choices.</p>

<p>(8) DON'T GET TOO EXCITED IF YOU GET INTO YOUR "REACH" SCHOOL! If you can "hold your own" at your "reach" school, great......go for it! If, on the other hand, you think that you'll earn a 2.9 at your "reach" school but a 3.5 at a more realistic choice, and you want to go to graduate school, BE CAREFUL. If a grad school (or employer) says that you must have a minimum GPA of 3.25 for them to consider you, and you didn't meet that criterion because you went to a "reach" school that was "over your head", you're out of luck. Plain and simple.</p>

<p>(9) Now......the real "gem" of advice: Are you a very good student who is probably going to "fall short" in terms of admission to "elite" (whatever that really means) colleges? If so, take a close look at Honors Programs offered by some "less prestigious" (doesn't mean lower quality) schools.</p>

<p>Often times, it is the student who is denied by the "elite" college who is offered a spot in an Honors Program at another college. Honors Programs have many perks. Sometimes they even offer huge merit scholarships to Honors Program students. At graduation time, graduates of these Honors Programs often end up with a much more impressive resume of accomplishments than they counterparts at the "elite" colleges. When it comes to graduate school and/or employment, who do you think is going to have the edge?</p>

<p>The nice thing about Honors Programs is that you are treated as a "special" student by the college. Sometimes it's better to be "special" in an Honors Program, than merely "average" as a more prestigious school!</p>

<p>I'd appreciate any comments you may have.</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

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<p>Also see these two threads:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=56545&pp=20%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=56545&pp=20&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=29564&page=9&pp=20%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=29564&page=9&pp=20&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

3

<p>Agre with the school prestige comment, let me elaborate. </p>

<p>So many employers i've talked to say that GPA and experience are the two most important things in hiring recent graduates. If you don't meet the GPA requirements, and don't have the experience they're looking for, they'll hire someone else, plain and simple.</p>

<p>Here's how much a prestige of a school comes into play. An employer looks at a resume, sees the school you went to, might make a joke about it, and if you're from an ivy league caliber school, that will raise an eyebrow. That's it.</p>

<p>I'm sure there are exceptions. I know that investment banking wants prestigious grads to work with other prestigious grads. Then again, anyone who wants to go into this profession is insane and only doing it for the money.</p>

<p>Here's the thing that is really important - the connections your school has with alumni. If you have an alumni network that is vast, and they help current students get jobs, consider yourself at a good college.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Example: A student who is accepted at both Harvard and Penn State chooses to go to Penn State. 20 years down the road, professionally speaking, that student will be just as successful having graduated from Penn State as he would have been had he graduated from Harvard, due to his outstanding personal attributes.</p>

<p>This holds true because it's the STUDENT (and the qualities he possesses), NOT the college, that determines one's success. If someone tries convince you otherwise, simply ask them to prove it. No such proof exists!

[/quote]
And yet later he writes
[quote]
The students sitting in Ivy League classrooms would be equally successful whether they graduate from Harvard or St. Lawrence.</p>

<p>For a research study that proves what I say, check this out:
<a href="http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/%7Emcguire/wo...e_leagues.html%5B/url%5D%5B/quote%5DLet"&gt;http://www.csis.gvsu.edu/~mcguire/wo...e_leagues.html

[/quote]
Let</a> me start by saying I pretty much agree with the overall post. However I can't let this go by without comment. "No such proof exists" because no "proof" of claims with so many variables involved ever can. People can do studies that provide evidence for the claim, or they don't. But do the studies "prove" it beyond all doubt? Of course not. And yet a few sentences later in his post the OP finds one study by Krueger that reaches the conclusion he wants and now the point is "proved". Hardly!! What's really happening here is that several academic studies that find the a link between college attended and earnings are not even mentioned ("no proof exists"), but the one academic study in accordance with his point is suddenly touted as "proving" it.</p>

<p>The study by Krueger is often cited in the press (and indirectly here by the OP), yet a careful examination of it shows it is based on some shaky assumptions and methodology. To wit, selectivity is assumed to be the same thing as average SAT score of the college; a college with a higher average SAT is supposed to be more selective. Turns out there were rankings of the schools done at the time by Barrons that didn't march in lockstep with SAT scores, and Krueger actually found that when this ranking was used instead of the SAT scores there was a statistically significant link between the school and earnings. Oops!! </p>

<p>Not only that, but to simplify his analysis Krueger didn't even use the school SAT scores directly. The clever approach in Krueger's study was to used matched pairs; if Joe got into A and B but attended A how did he turn out? And lets compare him to Sally who got into the same pair but attended B. Unfortunately Krueger didn't have enough pairs to do the study using individual schools, so instead he threw the schools into baskets that had average SAT scores within 25 points of one another. So Krueger didn't even compare one school against another, but baskets of schools against other baskets. Any effect that may have been present would be further watered down by this approach. </p>

<p>To little surprise once you understand this (and to no mention in the press), when a weak measure of selectivity is used and when even this measure is diluted still further, no link remained to be found.</p>

<p>I wrote a more detailed examination of Krueger's study about a year ago to the day (seems like these "it doesn't matter where you go" claims surface every year). For those interested, see the link at <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=145732&page=3&pp=15%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=145732&page=3&pp=15&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Very nice posts!
As a junior, this is reassuring and interesting; although I kind of knew this stuff before, it puts it into perspective nicely.</p>

<p>Thanks! =)</p>

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<p>Oye..gives me a headache thinking about it, but preserverance. Thanks though, it does help.</p>

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<p>very well written :)</p>

<p>I couldn't agree more!</p>

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<p>i agree...It all depends on the student..you can have the best professors , top notch facilities,top research...but the most important is the individual itself....</p>

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<p>mikemac,</p>

<p>Thanks for the effort in putting the Krueger study into perspective. I don't think it's wise to put ones faith in the Krueger study, but I do think it's wise to place the emphasis on the individual and not the institution, which is the wisdom 'old but wise' is stressing. If a college-bound individual is looking for what the school's name can do for him after graduation, a guarantee of success, he will perhaps make less of an investment in himself during college years. This can be true of attending Penn or Penn State alike. The name of the school may help the grad land her first job, but job performance will then become more of a determinant for promotion and success. The value of the name on the diploma is at its highest in the 8 months before graduation and a couple of months after. If Ms. Penn and Mr. Penn State are hired at the same time and work side by side, who will get promoted after the first year? It could be both, but actual job performance is now an indicator that didn't exist at the time of hiring, and in a fair environment would carry far greater weight than the name of the undergrad school.</p>

<p>While this topic is labeled 'Juniors - Words of Wisdom' I find it of value to parents of juniors, of which I am one. Parents can be more obsessed with school name and reputation than their kids, and no matter how well intended, I don't think that will help the process. Placing the emphasis on the individual, especially when it's my son, makes it easier for me to stay out of the way when I need to and be content to be the guy that provides the credit card number for the expenses involved in his search.</p>

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<p>standrews, I agree with you and was debating with myself whether it was worth the time to post the info about the Krueger study when it was just a relatively minor issue in the OP's excellent set of points and advice. In the end I posted it because Krueger's study seems on its way to becoming established in the set of "facts" everyone assumes is true, when in fact Krueger's study is flawed AND there is substantial evidence reaching the opposite conclusion.</p>

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<p>standrews: Glad to hear that you found value in my comments. As the father of a current high school junior, you are VERY WISE not to become obsessed with the name of a college. Far too many parents (wrongly) place way too much emphasis on that.</p>

<p>Perfect example of how the name of the school you graduate from doesn't guarantee success:</p>

<p>Let's say you are about to graduate from Princeton and you aspire to get a position as an investment banker with a top firm. The investment banking recruiters that go to Princeton to recruit grads are not just looking for a Princeton grad. In fact, they are looking for the "cream of the crop" Princeton grad. To even get an interview with an investment banking recruiter on campus, it's likely that you will probably need at least a 3.4 GPA, have impressive extracurriculars (such as a leadership and a great internship) and have VERY high SAT's (yet employers will look at your high school SAT's).</p>

<p>Then, you might go through three of four interviews before you find out whether you get the job. Again, it's not the COLLEGE, it's one's CREDENTIALS.</p>

<p>Guess what: There are graduates of Penn State, Lehigh, Stony Brook, etc. that can compete with the Ivy grads because they may have credentials that are at least as good!</p>

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<p>OBW,</p>

<p>Jos. Bank, Honda, and Michelob are my designer labels, rather than Brooks Brothers, Mercedes, and Dom Perignon. I will not pay extra for a horse and rider on my shirt, but I do not begrudge those in a position to afford more luxury than I can. I have nothing against the ivies or elite LACs, (dad went to Williams). My HS frosh wants to go to Princeton. She has her work cut out for her. I will not try to manage her expectations either way. OTOH my junior has no apparent desire to attend an ivy or elite LAC. Davidson is probably the most highly regarded school on his list of a dozen or so and is not really a reach for him. He's not aiming low; he just knows what kind of environment he wants to be in, and most of the elites aren't it. That's fine with me.</p>

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<p>Thank you for this. I'm a senior right now and a lot of kids in my class are caught up with the name/prestige of the school they got into. Sometimes it's hard to think of the bigger picture.</p>

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<p>well OP ... i really agree with many things about how you are the same person no matter where you go to school ... but i think the problem with your reasoning is that when you are at a prestigous school, there is a bit more motivation to do your best, to get the most out of it, and to say "wow...this is harvard and i can hold my own" now, of course, harvard is going to have a more enjoyable campus experience than penn state- the intangibles like famous professors, beautiful trees, great dorm rooms, and people who smile more because they are glad to be there..... i think where you lose me is excluding the atmosphere...because that is really what differentiates 2 schools .... for instance, there isn't a difference between barnes and nobles and the library...they both have books...but 1 is much nicer...you are going to stay there longer...perhaps read a few magazines while you are there...have some cofee... meet some interesting people....and then go home with your book....same in both cases...you are at home at the end of the night with the same book and b&n cost more...but you might say it was worth it</p>

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<p>Oracle1: I think you are looking at things in much a much too narrow-minded way: Do you really believe that the "Harvard-type" student who attends Penn State is really going to be less motivated to do well? Remember, just because one gets into Harvard, it doesn't necessarily guarantee that they will be any more motivated than anyone else. There are highly-motivated and less-motivated students at any college.</p>

<p>"Harvard is going to have a more enjoyable campus experience than Penn State." I don't know where you get that assumption from. Indeed, pehaps the exact opposite is true.</p>

<p>Harvard's atmosphere is "better." Talk to some Penn State students....I'm sure they'll disagree with you.</p>

<p>"Famous professors?" Being famous has nothing to do with their teaching ability.</p>

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<p>Thank you. =]</p>

<p>In the back of my mind, I already knew all that...but it's comforting to hear it from someone older who's already been there.</p>

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<p>OP.... I would consider myself more towards the Harvard-bound type than the Penn state type, and I know that I would put way more effort into a Harvard education than Penn state. the fact of the matter is that Harvard would open so many more doors </p>

<p>As for being narrow-minded.... penn state has a better campus and world-renowned teachers don't matter? </p>

<p>who are we kidding</p>

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<p>I'd have to agree with the previous comments about picking the right colleges for you.</p>

<p>I have a friend whose brother who was the val at my school a couple of years ago, brilliant guy and went to MIT. When he was there, he found out that he hated it there (mostly because of the professors and their focus on research and not their students). The word on the street now is that he's either transfered or dropped out entirely (probably the former) because of his disillusionment with the college.</p>

<p>So stop and think before you choose. Name doesn't mean everything. I had a Cornell interviewer admit to me that you'll get the about the same education at the top schools and its all about the name that you end up paying for (and if you're a med school hopeful like me, a decent state college looks good once you realize how much debt you'll be in in the end... unless you're loaded, then you can totally ignore me)</p>

<p>Passing on my limited knowledge.</p>

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<p>AM: I find your comment about med school very interesting.....</p>

<p>Some food for thought for those aspiring to go to medical school:</p>

<p>I know a student who easily could have gone to an Ivy, but chose not to because of cost and the fact that an Ivy was a poor fit for her. So, she went to "Good Old State U". She was admitted to FIVE medical schools, and is now a very successful physician.</p>

<p>She is a perfect example of what I often say: A student's future professional success has much more to do with the students qualities (intelligence, motivation, character, etc.) than WHERE the went to college.</p>

<p>It's not WHAT the Ivy's are teaching that makes their grads so successful; it's WHO they are teaching.</p>

<p>In other words, it's very likely that if a student has the qualities to be accepted at HYPSM, he is probably destined for success whether he goes to Harvard or St. Lawrence.</p>

<p>The student I referred to above is a perfect example of this.</p>

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<p>"It's been said that it's not WHAT the Ivy League colleges are teaching that makes their graduates so successful...........It's WHO they are teaching."</p>

<p>=)</p>