Clearly an education at Williams, Swarthmore, Haverford, Amherst, Pomona, or Harvey Mudd would highly benefit an ambitious student. What parents and high school students need to understand is that the top Liberal Arts Colleges are very similar to the Ivy League schools, in terms of price and education quality and, in some important categories, the Liberal Arts Colleges trump the highly coveted Ivies. Like professors that actually teach undergrads and make themselves available.
Slow day at the start of summer vacation??? We’ve had this discussion a number of times. Most of us agree that there are many, many wonderful schools outside of the Ivy League. In some important categories, a state university could trump an Ivy League school- or a top liberal arts school. There are many ways to skin a cat, so to speak.
It is more clear than ever to our family that education at any college depends strictly on the student and not the place. After graduating from the Medical School a week ago and looking back and reflecting on the fact that some students in her Medical School class regret attneding the Ivy / Elite colleges as it gave them NO advantage whatsoever, my D. is still in love with her in-state public UG and would attend there all over again. Her experiences there went way beyond our and her expectations and prepared her for the future not only academically but also in terms of personal growth, further develop her leadership skills and widen her social horizon. However, at ANY place, there are students that would not reach their goal for many reasons including the fact that the goal was not reachable, it was not their dream (maybe their parents?), they failed to adjust to a higher academic standards at college (ANY college requires such adjustment!).
Stating the names of certian colleges as being superior is still chasing names in my eyes.
The process of selecting a college for specific student is much deeper than chasing the names. It is long, tedeous, it looks at many aspects of student’s life on specific campus, it looks at opportunities to pursue ALL of the person’s goals, not just academic (which are #1 priority nonetheless).
However, attending at state public will NOT achieve the goal of attaching the prestigious name to your own for the rest of your life. There is nothing whrong with this goal, but not everybody has it. The rest of the goals are absolutely up to a student to achieve, place has nothing to do with it.
Not only D’s experience is proven that but also the experience of her huge crowd of friends all over the country, most graduated from state publics, some from privates, and some from the colleges listed by OP. Their success was achieved by their OWN EFFORTS.
Why not simply cut and paste the same post from thread to thread. Might be easier.
@MiamiDAP I think medical school and medical profession in general is an outlier to this discussion. So, while I agree with most of your post, it is not by and large a portable basis for many other professions. I speak from my wife who followed the route you articulated and went on to residencies/fellowships, including but not limited to JHU and UCSF (albeit over 20+ years ago) As well as my oldest daughter, who is two years out from UCSF Medical School. While accepted to several Ivy schools, instead selected CAL. Had she another career ambition, she probably would have gone to an Ivy, but for many other disciplines, at least from my vantage, they can provide a distinct advantage in propelling your career. Now, that said, all of that can be either achieved from different institutions, and/or a career path.
“12:44PM
@MiamiDAP I think medical school and medical profession in general is an outlier to this discussion”
-Add to the medical profession, engineering and CS fields as I am very familiar with these 2 and aware of the fact that the most of the places of employment hre locally to both engineering firms and IT departments. How do I know this secret? As it happensm my H. is an engineer with over 40 years of experience as most of our friends (and so are their children, who are the ahppy graduates of various in-state publics) and I am an IT proffessional for over 30 years who know tons of people in my field and who worked for 9 different employers in completely un-related industries and now is happily employed in one of the saught after industry of automotive suppliers.
While name of the college may be important in business, I also know very many from the local college as well as other in-state publics who are as successful as the kids from the colleges in the OP (I also know these as they are my D’s friends).
The same goes to several law students/graduates of the Law Schools.
In all the cases known to me, the success of the college graduate depended strictly on the graduate and not by any means the name of the school. The same goes for failures, they are products of the student’s failures, not the place non-recognition.
Attending Big State U in the squeal Honors College is also comparable, according to some.
Damn, that was salty. ^
^ I’m not sure if that’s a compliment or what?
Not at all 
Meant that the sarcasm was palpable but I’m not sure why the people who are proud of their honors college deserve sarcasm
Ok well, relax man, it’s a joke. I’m not trying to offend honors colleges at all, it’s just that whenever the “elite school vs other” debate comes up, there’s always someone who says “well in the honors college at Somewhere U, there’s plenty of Ivy caliber students, blah, blah, blah” as if the next best thing (if the elite school wasn’t an option for whatever reason) is State U+Honors, they’re always really glorified. Perhaps rightly so, in which case me remark wasn’t sarcastic.
I don’t think many on CC would argue that a strong LAC can provide an education as good as a strong university. It really comes down to a matter of personal preference on the part of the student. In my own family my D is currently at a LAC and is absolutely getting the most out of her college experience (great friends, small classes, doing research , involved in extracurricular activities etc ). In contrast, my S found the LAC environment too small when we visited colleges and he had an equally wonderful, successful, and involved experience at his mid-sized university. One type/size of school is not better than the other-- each school will provide a bit of a different experience and students should seek out the environment where they feel they can best succeed within the framework of what is affordable.
"Attending Big State U in the squeal Honors College is also comparable, according to some. "
-It is not comarable as after attending Big State U in the squeal Honors College, the family did NOT have to spend $300k for college education before the student even attended the Grad. School. All who are accepted to all the “superior” schools can get their UG education (which is for them is only the first step) for free at Big State U in the squeal Honors College. Many of these squeal Honors Colleges have the acceptance requirements that are actually comparable to the Ivy’s (like being in the top 2% of HS class).
Again, if you want a certain name attached to yours, go for it!! However, if not, kuddos to those with mature considerations for their family finances!! Not every family is in the billion dollar tax bracket…
Oh please.
My son’s experience was that EVERY one of his classes were taught by professors. And they were strong educators.
TAs were used only for office hours (to help on homework, answer questions, etc) and the Professors had office hours in which they asked people to show up for. Oh, and afterwards, on several occasions, my son was invited to a bbq or department get together that the prof was attending.
I know people like to find ways to feel good about not going to an Ivy, but this is not a good example
(yes, I am aware that not every college is like that, both for Ivy and non-Ivy and your results may vary)
People have used the same idle rhetoric over and over again. If the school used TAs, it means that NOT every class was taught by professors as the TAs are an integral part of the experience. We all know that TAs are also grading papers, and at times, in subjects they are neither trained nor qualified. The practice is acceptable in certain areas that allow paint by the number grading, but is a disgrace in many others. Nobody is fooled!
Pretending that the “teaching” is only represented by the professor in a lecture format is a loudly quacking canard. And one that is seemingly impossible for anyone with a student as a school that follows such a model to … admit. Even when others who DID experience the deficiencies of the TA model are telling them “It ain’t so”
TAs exist for a reason! And the schools that do NOT use them also know why!
Well, is it not wonderful that your daughter found the school that offered such a great fit. She obviously enjoyed spending all those years with her academic peers who shared her qualifications. Or perhaps, we should conclude that neither the school itself nor the student body plays a role in the experience.
This said, I hope you realize that the students who were able to earn a spot at an Ivy League school and forego the middling public universities would equally state that their experience was formidable. And I am sure that the students who graduate from Harvard, Yale, Baylor, or Stanford Med would just say the same. Them and the folks who went to some remote and obscure location in the Caribbean.
There are slots for everyone. Some carry more prestige than others!
One thing I have noticed, that OP, like far too many posters on CC need to understand is that ** price ** at Ivy leagues compared to top LAC can vary a LOT for the same student, and the NPCs vary even more for different family situations.
We are a single-income family of relatively modest means and very little savings. The Ivies my pups got into offered MUCH better FA than the LACs. Columbia, Brown and Yale met 100% need with no loans. The LACs calculate need differently (essentially expecting H to suspend retirement contributions, and/or use our home equity), and would also require them to take loans.
S will enter his senior year at Columbia in the fall. D will start as a freshman at Stanford (they matched Yale’s FA, plus added a nice allowance for travel).
I recognize that for full-pay students this doesn’t make a difference, but when comparing schools, most families at elite schools and top LACs will do get some form of financial aid. Just because a school says it meets full need doesn’t mean it meets what your family is willing to pay.
@MiamiDAP As to law schools, while you can measure success on many various metrics, I have to politely disagree. Ivy schools make a tremendous difference. If you look at T14 law schools, they are dominated by Ivyplus schools. For instance, I just reviewed what schools were most represented at Y-H-S law schools. The schools with the greatest representation were in most instances the following: H-Y-S-P and Columbia–and it was a very large margin, to the next tier of schools. Further, recruitment is not even in the same discussion level–period. At Y-H-S the actual potential job offers are at least, and this is being conservative, 3-4 per student. That means, at Harvard, which has a sizable class–about 600 or so, there are 2000s offers being made.
Not even schools in the top 20-30 remotely go into this vaulted territory of career opportunity. One need only peruse the partners and associates list of major firms in the NE area mid-Atlantic, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, etc…and it is has the highest representation from Ivy plus schools. Again, I realize there are other ways to measure a career…but, certainly one could make a case with numbers derived from these entities.
Absolutely, but there is no universal rule as financial aid is always tailored to the individual. The lack of universal rule might very well make a LAC the most generous if they allow different uses of scholarships, add guaranteed work study and paid summers in the form of grants, and do NOT insist on very summer contributions and students’ earning allocations.
In your stated examples, you listed Brown. A few years ago, their financial aid was similar to MIT in reducing grants when students earned outside scholarships and we not cooperative with programs such as the Gates Millennium. They insisted on the summer contribution and only relented later.
Financial aid is not fixed and schools move up and down according to their own yearly goals.
I think many on cc WOULD argue with that misperception