just got a our of the new bioE facility

<p>It's the most beautiful building on campus! it really makes the rest of the buildings on campus look really crummy... especially evans which BLOCKS the gorgeous view of the bay that the bioE facility could have had. the lecture hall that we toured is freaking amazing because of the nice wooden touch to the walls, and the seats are incredibly comfortable; i don't think i will able to keep awake during lectures there. i wish all buildings were nice on campus..</p>

<p>anyhow, it's funny how they reserve spaces as lounges for bioE graduate students and none for undergrad as of now.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>It's all relative. Everything new seems nice at the beginning. I am sure when Evans was first cosntructed, people found it beautiful.</p>

<p>"anyhow, it's funny how they reserve spaces as lounges for bioE graduate students and none for undergrad as of now."</p>

<p>How is that funny? Undergrads are always treated like dirt.</p>

<p>
[quote]
anyhow, it's funny how they reserve spaces as lounges for bioE graduate students and none for undergrad as of now.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, many departments have areas reserved for grad-students/faculty that are off-limits to undergrads.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Actually, many departments have areas reserved for grad-students/faculty that are off-limits to undergrads.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>To the best of your knowledge, to what extent do such restricted spaces exist at other top U.S. universities?</p>

<p>
[quote]
To the best of your knowledge, to what extent do such restricted spaces exist at other top U.S. universities?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They exist at almost all of them. For example, Harvard Business School has a super-swanky gym that is famously unavailable to all undergrads. {Heck, it's unavailable to anybody who isn't part of HBS, even professors from other departments of Harvard}. </p>

<p>However, other schools also have spaces that are restricted only to undergrads, and where grad students generally are usually not allowed to tread. To give you an example, the Harvard undergraduate Houses are VASTLY better than the Harvard graduate dorms. Heck, many of those Harvard Houses are actually better than even many of the Harvard grad-student offices. The dorm-food in the Houses is, frankly, better than a lot of the food you can buy at Harvard Square. Heck, it's ridiculous how nice some of those Houses are, so much so that frankly, I wish that I was living in some of them. Graduate students need special permission to enter any of the Houses. Similarly, at MIT, the MIT undergrad dorms tend to be better than the MIT graduate dorms, and grad students need special permission to enter an MIT undergrad dorm. I would call that an example of a 'restricted space' for undergrads.</p>

<p>Is there anything for undergraduates like this at Berkeley?</p>

<p>Moffitt Undergraduate Library...HAH</p>

<p>:rolleyes:</p>

<p>the people i know who are undergrads complain the university they attend only cares about grads and research.</p>

<p>the people i know who are graduate students complain the university they work at only cares about the undergrads.</p>

<p>the grass is always greener.</p>

<p>Did your graduate student friends articulate on how the university cares more about the undergrads?</p>

<p>The most clear cut example is housing. Grads are screwed by the housing issue even more than undergrads are, mainly because there is no such thing as first year grad student guaranteed housing.</p>

<p>I don't know how difficult it is for grad students to get the university housing, or how many who apply are rejected. You phrase your rhetoric to indicate this is the most obvious,that many other examples exist. Care to give a more exhaustive list?</p>

<p>ok, problems with the graduate experience at berkeley:</p>

<ul>
<li>lack of nearby housing</li>
<li>due to lack of nearby housing + unsafe environment, results in having many hard science grads who often cannot work late into the night in the labs. they must get home early and safe. at say...stanford, there is no such worry.</li>
<li>lack of research space for social science graduate students: many grads in fields like psychology and education are not given enough space in the departments' labs and are forced to run experiments in their own home/apartment</li>
<li>many of the grad programs are quite large because they take in many more students than say HYPS, which leads to a devaluation of the berkeley name when the time comes to find an academic job </li>
<li>unnaturally large number of humanities grad students (especially M.A. students in certain departments) accepted in order to become a source of income for the underfunded departments</li>
<li>lack of individual office space for grad students, which HYPS often provide</li>
<li>lack of full rides, such as those available from Yale</li>
<li>relative scarcity of what might be considered undergraduate academic superstars, who would ideally provide hopeful future profs (grad students) with truly engaging students</li>
<li>lack of community...many grad students drift from apartment to apartment, make few or no friends - only to end up by failing the tests which determine whether or not the department will even consider a dissertation. when many grads fail these tests, nobody gives a damn, sort of how when an undergrad gets kicked out for having below a 2.0 GPA </li>
<li>many of the lower division classes try to give undergrads a "taste" of the competition by imposing harsh grading. by contrast, in many "lower division" graduate classes, grading is incredibly inflated - giving the false impression to tons of 23 year old first year grad students that everyone in their cohort will eventually succeed in the program</li>
<li>etc, etc, etc</li>
</ul>

<p>That's not what I'm looking for. I was looking for an answer to "Is there anything for undergraduates like this at Berkeley?" What is exclusively for undergrads that is desireable. What is set aside for undergrads and only undergrads that the grads or faculty or staff want but can't get (because it's reserved for undergrads)?</p>

<p>I'm not sure aobut grads and faculty wanting, but these things aren't available for them, and I'm sure much much more.... </p>

<p>The library at the top of Eshlemann, ability to hold an ASUC senate seat, ability to live in a dorms for 2 years as a freshman admit, ability to live in the dorms for 1 year as a transfer admit, free football tickets for first year grad students, freshmen and sophomore seminars, readerships in certain departments/classes, ability to visit some professors in office hours (many reserve OH for undergrads,) lack of affirmative action which exists to a certain extent for undergrads barely exists for grads, clubs more or less don't exist at the graduate level, many graduate/faculty associations are closed off to many grad students and faculty because the associations are gendered/racial associations, etc.</p>

<p>Some of these things are inferior replacements- by this I mean the graduate students or faculty have superior alternatives and don't need the undergraduate resource, such as Eshlemann library (because they faculty lounges, special access to libraries, etc).</p>

<p>As to the dorms, what is guranteed to the grad students? What is available? </p>

<p>Football tickets might be something, but that's 75 bucks or so saved (and you have to pay for the 2 biggest games of the year).</p>

<p>Isn't it true that grad students don't pay to come here- they essentially work as teachers (this does not include professional students, who basically all pay). Profs get paid to work here. Undergraduates are paying and the only super special thing they get (as they get many good resources that are shared, such as cheap gym membership and the ability to take courses with some great professors), is football tickets, and that's only for their first year here? </p>

<p>
[quote]
ability to hold an ASUC senate seat

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The faculty senate has far more power, and you may not have heard, but there's a grad student equivalent.</p>

<p>
[quote]
reshmen and sophomore seminars

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They have real seminars to take.</p>

<p>
[quote]
readerships in certain departments/classes

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What?</p>

<p>
[quote]
ability to visit some professors in office hours (many reserve OH for undergrads)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What? Never seen that in my time here. In fact, I see grad students in line with undergraduates, and EXTRA time especially for graduate students (seminar only OH), as well as profs spending their personal time more liberally on grad students.</p>

<p>
[quote]
lack of affirmative action which exists to a certain extent for undergrads barely exists for grads

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh so very false. It's MORE prevalent in graduate admissions!</p>

<p>
[quote]
clubs more or less don't exist at the graduate level

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You've never heard of a graduate working group?</p>

<p>
[quote]
many graduate/faculty associations are closed off to many grad students and faculty because the associations are gendered/racial associations, etc.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But this is some grads/faculty vs other grads/faculty, so irrelevant.</p>

<p>So all your saying is there are some equivalent but inferior things?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Some of these things are inferior replacements- by this I mean the graduate students or faculty have superior alternatives and don't need the undergraduate resource, such as Eshlemann library.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not so sure Eshlemann library is an "inferior replacement" - quite the contrary IMO. If you haven't noticed, it's in a very desirable spot. Most of the graduate/faculty lounges are not in desirable spots - by which I mean places like Eshlemann where food and coffee are readily accessible, even late into the night and early morning.</p>

<p>
[quote]
As to the dorms, what is guranteed to the grad students? What is available?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There are no guarantees. Graduate student housing is available but demand far exceeds supply.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Football tickets might be something, but that's 75 bucks or so saved (and you have to pay for the 2 biggest games of the year).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's not so much the price - it's the "invitation to be a part of the Cal family" happy feeling you get when you find out about the tickets.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Isn't it true that grad students don't pay to come here- they essentially work as teachesrs. Profs get paid to work here. Undergraduates are paying and the only real special thing they get is football tickets, and that's their first year here?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The reality is that quite a few grad students don't pay anything, as they are on very special fellowships, usually because they have lower levels of testosterone than most tenured professors and because they have slightly opaque skin colors.</p>

<p>As to the dorms, what is guranteed to the grad students? What is available?</p>

<p>Football tickets might be something, but that's 75 bucks or so saved (and you have to pay for the 2 biggest games of the year).</p>

<p>Isn't it true that grad students don't pay to come here- they essentially work as teachesrs. Profs get paid to work here. Undergraduates are paying and the only real special thing they get is football tickets, and that's their first year here?</p>

<p>
[quote]
The faculty senate has far more power, and you may not have heard, but there's a grad student equivalent.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The Graduate Assembly is a joke. Surely you recognize that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
They have real seminars to take.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Plenty of grad students would like to take freshmen and sophomore seminars and are prevented from doing so by Tele-Bears. For example, last semester an MCB grad student wanted to take a seminar I was in. The professor allowed him to audit but he was never able to get credit, as he would have liked because the class was restricted to freshmen and sophomores even though the class was underenrolled. By contrast, it is often quite easy for undergrads to take grad seminars quite simply because grad seminars tend to be underenrolled. No matter which way you spin it, many grad students, especially those in the humanities who went to much lesser undergrad schools, would appreciate being able to enroll in a freshman/sophomore seminar.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Test and homework grading.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What? Never seen that in my time here. In fact, I see grad students in line with undergraduates, and EXTRA time especially for graduate students (seminar only OH), as well as profs spending their personal time more liberally on grad students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We've had different experiences. I've personally witnessed a professor telling a grad student to see him after seminar because "OHs are for undergraduates."</p>

<p>
[quote]
Oh so very false. It's MORE prevalent in graduate admissions!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It seems like it's prevalent in disciplines which benefit from having diverse viewpoints (which are assumed to arise from diverse skin colors,) but overall, it's much less prevalent at the grad level.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You've never heard of a graduate working group?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Of course I've heard of graduate working groups. They are fundamentally different from "clubs" because they stress academics, as opposed to extracurricular activities. I stand by what I said, grad students have limited opportunities to engage in ECs mainly due to the lack of graduate clubs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm not so sure Eshlemann library is an "inferior replacement" - quite the contrary IMO. If you haven't noticed, it's in a very desirable spot. Most of the graduate/faculty lounges are not in desirable spots - by which I mean places like Eshlemann where food and coffee are readily accessible, even late into the night and early morning.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, I don't know about that. Generally, what PhD students have is at least a desk, if not an entire office (although sometimes that office is shared). But that office tends to have plenty of food and coffee lying around. </p>

<p>But getting back to the idea of just having a desk - I would say that that's a pretty big deal. It basically means that you have a guaranteed place to store things and to study. Hence, no more need to be hauling all your stuff to campus, and hauling it all back home at night, day in and day out. Instead, you just keep most of your stuff at your desk. You can keep a computer there, which means no more lugging around a laptop and always worrying that it will get stolen. You can keep your books there, so less need to be lugging those things back and forth. You can bring your bicycle INSIDE your office, so you don't have to take chances on locking it outdoors. You can keep store some food there, so you don't have to pay confiscatory retail prices and you don't have to always be carrying your food back and forth. You can hang your coat there so you don't have to carry it around all day long. It's a quite nice deal. </p>

<p>I have often times wondered why Berkeley can't offer similar arrangements to its undergrads. In fact, some undergrads do get that, but only if they agree to take on extra responsibilities. For example, the officers of the student chapter of AICHE (the American Institute of Chemical Engineers) have a cozy little office in Latimer, overlooking the Chemistry Computer Lab. I know many officers used it as a storage and study space. The office has a microwave and a coffee machine, it has a community computer. It's pretty nice. But of course, you could only get a key if you were an officer. </p>

<p>Another example is the office of Tau Beta Pi (the honors engineering organization). That office is pretty nice too - with a bunch of desks and amenities. But again, only open to officers. </p>

<p>And then there is the after-hours access to libraries that graduate students enjoy. For example, grad students in chemistry/ChemE can get into the Hildebrand Chemistry library anytime they want to. That's a nice thing because that library isn't exactly open all that often. For example, it's only open from 1-5 on the weekends. That's pretty weak. </p>

<p>"For after-hours access, swipe your campus photo ID card on the unit to the right of the library doors. All rules regarding food and drink apply to after-hours use. Do not let anyone else in on your card. When you swipe your card, your access is recorded. There is a yellow emergency police call-down box in the reading room for use after-hours. "</p>

<p><a href="http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/CHEM/graduate.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/CHEM/graduate.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
It's not so much the price - it's the "invitation to be a part of the Cal family" happy feeling you get when you find out about the tickets.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I don't know. Harvard undergrads get free football tickets too, but the fact is except for Harvard vs. Yale, game attendance is pretty sparse. I remember when Cal football was bad (i.e. in 2001, the team only won 1 game), attendance was pretty sparse. Football is a pretty dicey thing. Cal isn't USC or Michigan - there is no history of consistently good football recently. In some seasons Cal is good, in others, Cal is bad. So resting school spirit on the football team seems like a hit-or-miss affair to me. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The reality is that quite a few grad students don't pay anything, as they are on very special fellowships, usually because they have lower levels of testosterone than most tenured professors and because they have slightly opaque skin colors.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, OK if you say so. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Plenty of grad students would like to take freshmen and sophomore seminars and are prevented from doing so by Tele-Bears. For example, last semester an MCB grad student wanted to take a seminar I was in. The professor allowed him to audit but he was never able to get credit, as he would have liked because the class was restricted to freshmen and sophomores even though the class was underenrolled. By contrast, it is often quite easy for undergrads to take grad seminars quite simply because grad seminars tend to be underenrolled. No matter which way you spin it, many grad students, especially those in the humanities who went to much lesser undergrad schools, would appreciate being able to enroll in a freshman/sophomore seminar.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I can appreciate the desirability of some fresh/soph seminars. But the truth is, most PhD students don't do their actual "learning" in classes or even seminars. Nor is most of their interaction with profs accomplished that way. Instead, as a PhD student who has reached the dissertation phase, you are generally expected to meet with your advisor periodically. THAT becomes your "real" seminar - basically a one-on-one meeting to hash out what you've been doing and what needs to be done. Frankly, you can't get a much better learning environment than a periodic one-on-one meeting with a prof. </p>

<p>Now, if we want to talk about professional-school grad students, then I think it's also quite clear that the grad students have far greater access to profs. For example, few of the Haas MBA courses are available to undergrads, not even Haas undergrads. Heck, the MBA courses don't even show up in the regular Berkeley general Course Schedule. I know that in the past, you couldn't even sign up for them with regular Telebears, as Haas MBA students had their * own * special signup procedure. Instead, these students have their own exclusive signup procedure.</p>

<p><a href="http://web.haas.berkeley.edu/Registrar/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.haas.berkeley.edu/Registrar/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Furthermore, many of the best Haas profs teach * only * MBA courses. Hence, if you're not an MBA student, you will never see these profs. </p>

<p>The same is true of the law classes at Boalt - few undergrads are able to obtain the necessary approvals to take actual Boalt law classes, and many (probably most) Boalt law professors teach * only * law classes. While law students do use Telebears, they effectively get exclusive access to Boalt classes via their specially designated Boalt ID numbers. I seem to recall one undergrad initially being able to sign up for Boalt classes through Telebears, but later found that he was dropped from all those courses when the system discovered that he wasn't a Boalt student. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The Graduate Assembly is a joke. Surely you recognize that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think it's any more of a joke than the equivalent organizations at other schools. Of course, one might argue that they are ALL jokes, but that's a different issue entirely. Furthermore, I would argue that the Graduate Assembly is no less ineffective than is ASUC. Seriously, look at all of the times that ASUC got snubbed by the administration. So maybe they're ALL equally ineffective. </p>

<p>
[quote]
We've had different experiences. I've personally witnessed a professor telling a grad student to see him after seminar because "OHs are for undergraduates."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, but I would hardly translate that into a general truism regarding the time allotted to graduate students. Like I said, graduate students almost by definition have to have more time with profs simply because they have to be constantly checking in with their advisors. Hence, the advisors have to be making time for these students.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Of course I've heard of graduate working groups. They are fundamentally different from "clubs" because they stress academics, as opposed to extracurricular activities. I stand by what I said, grad students have limited opportunities to engage in ECs mainly due to the lack of graduate clubs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I don't know about that. I would first of all say that it's difficult to generalize. The Haas School of Business, like any other business school, is basically just one giant club for its MBA students. After all, the truth is, most MBA students are there to network and recruit, not so much for the academics. MBA programs in general have been described as 2-year social clubs. {Now, it should be said that a lot of undergrads in all schools are not really there for the academics either and are just going to college so that they can get their tickets punched so they can get a good job, but that's a different issue entirely.} </p>

<p>Take a look at all of the Haas clubs. Seems like a good number to me. While not all of them bar undergrads, I think you would feel awkward as a 20-year-old undergrad trying to network with a bunch of 28-year-old MBA's. Furthermore, some of these clubs explicitly bar undergrads. For example, the Entrepreneurship Club states that it is open only to graduate students.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/MBA/student/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/MBA/student/&lt;/a>
<a href="http://groups.haas.berkeley.edu/ea/members.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://groups.haas.berkeley.edu/ea/members.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Contrast that with the regular 'undergrad' student organzations, most of which are open to all students, grad or undergrad. Note, there are some that are exclusive to undergrads only, but I doubt that there are many. And in fact, I remember some groups have many graduate students. For example, back in the old days, I remember how one particular cultural student association in 1 year basically consisted of basically only grad students. </p>

<p>And of course the main issue is that, other than the notable exception of the MBA students, grad students are generally less interested in EC's. You go to grad school to train yourself in a specific discipline, not really to participate in a bunch of clubs. Lots of grad students have spouses and children, and so their family effectively becomes their "EC". I would say that the whole notion of clubs and such is not a particularly well-established phenomenom within the graduate student communities of most schools. For example, most Harvard and MIT graduate students are noticeably less interested in EC's than are the undergrads. </p>

<p>So I think the real question is not whether grad students at Berkeley lack things that the undergrads have. Rather, the real question is whether they lack things relative to the grad students at peer schools. The answer is probably 'no'. From asking around, I gather that the Berkeley graduate students are basically offered an equivalent palette of amenities that the grad students at Stanford, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Caltech, Princeton and other such schools are offered. The only serious exception I can see is the housing, but even then the verdict is far from unanimous. Stanford, Princeton, Caltech, and most programs at Harvard guarantee at least 1 year of housing for grad students, whereas Berkeley, MIT, Yale, and some Harvard grad programs do not.</p>