<p>Here's a hopeful take on the situation. Since you dad loves Yale, he wants you to have the same experience, and in some ways having a kid go to the alma mater further strengthens the attachement to the college and the child. So I can understand his desire to see you go there. However, given months to get used to the idea that Yale is, at best, your third choice, he may be prepared to accept it if you end up going elsewhere. </p>
<p>By the way, I would not walk around Harvard alone in the middle of the night. It is not safe at all. </p>
<p>Yale's reported crime stats do not look that bad. Always hard to know how reliable these statistics are.</p>
<p>Criminal Offenses - On Campus 2002 2003 2004
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
b. Negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible 3 5 4
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible (incest and statutory rape only) 0 0 0
e. Robbery 2 8 4
f. Aggravated assault 2 0 0
g. Burglary 42 63 82
h. Motor vehicle theft 5 7 10
i. Arson 0 0 0 </p>
<p>Criminal Offenses - On-Campus Residence Halls
(Residence Halls are a subset of On Campus) 2002 2003 2004
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
b. Negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible 2 1 1
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible (incest and statutory rape only) 0 0 0
e. Robbery 1 0 0
f. Aggravated assault 0 0 0
g. Burglary 16 28 38
h. Motor vehicle theft 0 0 0
i. Arson 0 0 0 </p>
<p>Harvard's numbers are at least as bad.</p>
<p>Criminal Offenses - On Campus 2002 2003 2004
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
b. Negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible 5 38 5
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible (incest and statutory rape only) 0 0 0
e. Robbery 1 1 2
f. Aggravated assault 2 1 3
g. Burglary 156 142 109
h. Motor vehicle theft 55 35 39
i. Arson 3 2 1 </p>
<p>Criminal Offenses - On-Campus Residence Halls
(Residence Halls are a subset of On Campus) 2002 2003 2004
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
b. Negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible 2 5 3
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible (incest and statutory rape only) 0 0 0
e. Robbery 0 0 1
f. Aggravated assault 1 0 3
g. Burglary 45 44 66
h. Motor vehicle theft 0 0 0
i. Arson 1 0 0 </p>
<p>Remember, Harvard is larger community, with more people around, so one would expect higher numbers.</p>
<p>Actually, wasn't there a murder between roommates at Harvard a few years ago? I'm being serious here - I remember something like that - one female killed another???</p>
<p>Anyway, I do think the father is being irrational here. Though parents can influence their child's decision - and even steer them in a certain direction - the final decision should be the student who will be attending the school.</p>
<p>My roommate (several decades ago) was murdered one block from Harvard Yard.</p>
<p>Having said that, if I were your dad, I'd be THRILLED that you'd have such wonderful choices, and proud that you'd be able to make one that is truly your own.</p>
<p>Afan, I'm sure there is no real difference between Harvard and Yale in terms of ON campus crime (the stats you looked at) -- it is the OFF campus environment that is significantly different. </p>
<p>I would be surprised if any parent wasn't concerned about safety, no matter how much they favor a particular school. That doesn't mean that the parent would change their mind.... but it is at least something to think about.</p>
<p>I believe that there is virtually no school in America that is not at some at least small security risk. New Haven happens to be a more violent city than the average but certainly that is not the sole reason I don't want to go, it is truly secondary. When I visited the school, I just never got the feeling no matter how hard I tried that I could feel and be comfortable there. I have a very artsy side to me and the idea of being in Cambridge,where you have such a vast amount of things at your doorstep just adds to the appeal. It may be hard for some to understand, but its the way I feel. The primary reason howver is that when visiting I just loved H over Y. Pure and simple.</p>
<p>I am not going to comment on your analysis of the various campuses and their respective "styles" but I do know numerous parents (Dad's actually) that have put elite school legacy pressure on their kids. Parents get over these things. When you discuss the issue I would make reasonable arguments with the understanding that your father must have had a wonderful experience and he wants the same for you. Be kind but be FIRM if you are sure about Harvard - and are lucky enough to get in. He isn't going to make you go to a school that you don't want. </p>
<p>Your Dad will have to explain to his buddies at the alumni meetings that his little girl isn't going to Yale. He will survive and it will be fine but keep in mind your Dad is as hard-core as you say, he might always feel a tiny bit sad that you didn't go to Yale. I know a Williams alum who still makes the occasional aside about his kid not attending and the student is post graduate school (!).</p>
<p>Like the other posters, I am with you. Stick to your guns!</p>
<p>I also think that you are right to make the issue your own personal feelings, rather than something allegedly lacking at Yale. IMO, criticizing Yale will make him defensive and will leave you open to rebuttal. Focusing on your feelings, on the other hand, in no way criticizes Yale as such and is not open to rebuttal.</p>
<p>I apologize if what was intended as light teasing came across as nastiness. A more carefully written response got nuked by the software, and I cut some corners repeating the exercise. Obviously, you (may) have wonderful choices, and I'm sure your parents are bursting with pride. I want to emphasize that I don't think it's right for your father to put that kind of pressure on you, and that I have explicitly chosen otherwise with my child.</p>
<p>I turned down Harvard twice in my youth (in favor of Yale and Stanford, as it happens). It was the right choice for me both times. But I know perfectly well that I would have loved Harvard and had a great experience there. Pretending that there are massive, life-alterning differences between these institutions is a little silly. There are differences (some semi-permanent, some that change from decade to decade), they are quite significant, and they can be life-altering, but there is NO WAY to predict ex ante exactly what effect they will have on a particular individual.</p>
<p>I had similar pressure placed on me when I was 17, by the way. My family had a lot of ties to Harvard, and really couldn't imagine someone choosing not to go there. In my mother's family, I was the second male in three generations not to go there, the first in 30 years, and the first to turn it down. One uncle told me, almost literally with his dying breath, that I couldn't let myself make a mistake that big when I was that young. And my parents did tell me that they wouldn't pay for Stanford, since there was nothing there that they valued that I couldn't get within driving distance from home. (They changed their mind two years later for my sister, although in a context that was meaningfully different.)</p>
<p>Anyway, my parents and relatives learned to respect my choice, and yours probably will, too. And if they don't, if they really carry through on their implied threats (and it's much easier to imply that threat than to carry through on it), and if you "have" to go to Yale having exhausted all your arguments and other options, then I have two predictions: (1) You will find many interesting ways to make them suffer for that. (2) If you aren't tremendously self-destructive, you will probably like Yale a lot. Notwithstanding that your father isn't being reasonable, there's not actually a lot at stake for you.</p>
<p>Groton girlie.... I have a fearless prediction: You will not get in to Harvard; problem solved. You put on your H application that your father is a Y alum; they will have surmised that you applied to Yale, perhaps EA, and the call to your counselor to get more information about you was most likely a friendly call to say, "Was she admitted EA?"</p>
<p>Assuming from your name that you go to Groton, we can surmise that your counselor wouldn't lie to the adcom. Private schools spend decades cultivating their relationships with admissions offices, and Groton's relationship with Harvard is more important than whether you go to your second or first choice school.... to put it bluntly.</p>
<p>So- H knows that you're a Yale legacy, and that you've been admitted to Yale. Why riisk a cross admit fight when they can admit any one of a dozen of your highly qualified classmates to H, most of whom are likely to attend?</p>
<p>I don't mean to be cruel.... but life has a way of working these things out on their own. The time you're spending worrying about this could be better spent enjoying senior year.</p>
<p>Personally, my kids weren't interested in my alma mater and I was fine with that. But-- you're not my kid. If you were, I would have told you to either apply to Yale and be happy if you got in, or not to apply if you had no interest in attending. I don't think there's much to be gained by trophy hunting, and the energy required to put together a good application could be better spent on something else.</p>
<p>Here's an interesting tidbit a friend gleaned from a long conversation with a senior Harvard admissions person last spring: If you adjust for the few true developmental admits, most of whom have significant family ties to the school, the admission rate at Harvard for children of Harvard alumni is almost exactly the same as the admission rate at Harvard for the children of Yale and Princeton alumni. In other words, they really don't care either way -- no meaningful preference for their own legacies, and no steering clear of kids who are legacies at comparable schools. There is no big difference in yield, either, from those groups.</p>
<p>Though I'll take you at your word that you don't mean to be cruel, your blunt post did read that way, even to an outsider. In no way did I take from the OP's words that she was spending her entire senior year worrying about this issue. In fact, this forum was created <em>especially</em> for dealing with these types of questions and the fact that the OP posted this here shows that awareness, nothing more, IMHO.</p>
<p>Perhaps the scenario will play out exactly as you say it will--and perhaps not. I happen to think that if she is so highly sought after by Yale (with some encouraging signs from both Brown and Stanford), then there is every reason to believe that Harvard may extend her an acceptance as well. Each year there are several kids on this forum who make sweeps of the Ivies, and perhaps the OP will be one of those.</p>
<p>Every kid has his own set of parents....it matters little what YOU would do in this situation--<em>or</em> I. The OP was seeking assistance for <em>her</em> situation, which involved her specific set of parents. Many parents are, for whatever reason, invested in their child attending the legacy school, though many others do not think this way at all. The OP had a legitimate worry that she shared with the forum. A harsh response was not required.</p>
<p>"I know a Williams alum who still makes the occasional aside about his kid not attending and the student is post graduate school (!)."</p>
<p>I am a Williams alum who is proud (actually, ecstatic) that my d., who was recruited at my alma mater for reasons having nothing to do with legacy status, chose Smith over it. But it doesn't mean I don't get to sing "The Mountains", even while Smith's football team is undefeated since 1876. ;)</p>
<p>Setting aside whether you're speaking of H, Y or X-State U, one of the basics understood by all who work in the college advising field is that when a l6/l7 year old sets foot on the "right" campus he/she will be moved in a very deep way and perceive "I'd be happy hear, I could learn here, I could grow here..." A feeling of "rightness of fit" can't be imposed on a college or a student. Your Dad wishes for that feeling between you and Yale, much like someone trying to introduce two singles they are so fond of, hoping they'll fall in love. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not. Can't fault the matchmaker for trying! Kind of heavy for your D to bring in another Yale alum to convince you; please be careful to be diplomatic and open-minded throughout the pre/during/post so you don't inflame all. No need to debate the other alum, but it's possible to take in some positive new points about Y. What a lucky person, to be so smart and tended-to at the same time but I can see you also feel it as a huge pressure, which it is. Other parents on this site recognize that on your behalf. The winter to "chill" and your zipping for awhile is a very mature strategy on your part. I haven't heard this much fatherly angst since (Fiddler On the Roof's) Tevye's third daughter decided to marry outside of her faith!</p>
<p>Hey, "Mini's" post above gave me a new thought, in case it's helpful: do you have a younger sib or cousin? Maybe that's hope for your D's dream to send someone he loves to his alma mater.<br>
Our eldest declined our double alma-mater (Oberlin) for Amherst all in the RD process. Then the second child, who avoided it somewhat and visited/interviewed 6 other places first, landed on the Oberlin campus in October, fell absolutely in love with it on her own terms, applied and was accepted their ED. So, you never know. Either way, we knew each campus was absolutely right for each of them.</p>
<p>I assume groton girlie, clever independent cookie that she is, has advised Harvard in clear terms that Harvard is her first choice and she will attend if admitted. </p>
<p>My prediction is this: your dad will burst his buttons if you get into Harvard. He may always wish you went to his alma mater, but he will be thrilled to see you succeed at Harvard.</p>
<p>Congrats on Yale EA. I know what a feat it is to get to the top of a class at Groton. Well done to you.</p>
<p>I'll adopt you and your parents can take my son and we'll all be happy with our kids' choice. I always wanted him to go to Harvard, he wouldn't even apply there -- applied to Yale SCEA, got in, and refused to submit any other apps. I, his parent, the person paying for college, have NO SAY in this. It's his life, it's his four years, it's his experience. Your parents have to accept that as well -- you'll be happier and do better if you go where you want to go. Stick to your guns (though, interesting, almost no one at my son's school would even consider Harvard, almost everyone out here thinks Harvard = death and Yale has the best residential college system and best social atmosphere, go figure).</p>
<p>Blossom, you may not have intended to come across "cruel" but with all due respect you did. Geez..........you could have been a little gentler. For the record, I feel strongly about getting in based on a few things, Harvard statistically has admitted many many students whose parents are alums of their "rivals" and yes i have told them its my numero uno choice!</p>
<p>BERUHAH, Thanks for your kind words of wisdom, they put a smile on my face!You are so right I have thoroughly enjoyed my senior year and still am! I feel like, unlike some, was truly able to do and enjoy so many of the awesome things about being the "big cheese" on campus. I certainly gave my apps/essays their due time but nothing excessive, just right.</p>
<p>CHEERS Thanks for calling me a clever cookie, I like that! I only hope you are right, am crossing my fingers that you are!</p>
<p>I feel like I am giving my Oscar thank you speech,
ALSO FOR THE RECORD:</p>
<p>I AM NOT a student at Groton any longer, went for one year and left to come back to school at home. My sister however did and graduated from there, she made up this name and I stuck with it (which in hindsight maybe wasn't too smart) maybe I will switch it to CLEVER COOKIE:)</p>