<p>Getting into Harvard does not automatically correlate with success. I know someone who graduated from Brown and Harvard who is now unemployed (and an alcoholic) and someone who graduated from some obscure college (I don't even know its name) who owns a 6 million dollar home and is a very successful (albeit obnoxious) man.</p>
<p>I don't like to remind people of all the wonderful cliches we hear from parents/counselors/teachers etc. but this is simply the truth: it's what you make of yourself. </p>
<p>I have worse SATs than most people who get into Ivys and other prestigious schools. I might not get in, but I know I will be at least as, if not more, successful than Ivy leaguers. (I say this because I am determined-- my apparent arrogance has nothing to do with it, as it is only apparent. =P) </p>
<p>IVYPoison: Of course, or they probably wouldn't get accepted in the first place. Just saying that if you don't have good SATs (or whatever it is that personally holds you/a person back), you can become as successful with determination.</p>
<p>candlize: that's why I named the thread "Just to REMIND you"-- note the emphasis on the word remind. By the way, the schools to which I applied are all very competitive. I want to get into a good college like everyone else here.</p>
<p>And, yes, it's true that college helps. I was just saying that it wasn't the determining factor.</p>
<p>
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Getting into Harvard does not automatically correlate with success.
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False. What you mean to say is that getting into Harvard does not automatically guarantee success. But does attending a good college correlate positively with success? Without a doubt, yes. Your example is also irrelevant with regards to the positive trend, because isolated examples have no effect on the overall trend.</p>
<p>
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Your example is also irrelevant with regards to the positive trend, because isolated examples have no effect on the overall trend.
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</p>
<p>Indeed, the nature of 'correlations' is that exceptions are inevitable. Were there no exception, there would cease to be a correlation, and a necessary connection would obtain.</p>
<p>
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in science, most people who are successful COULD have gotten into H if they decided to apply, right?
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</p>
<p>I am not sure that logically follows:</p>
<p>1) If you go to Harvard, you are likely to be successful.
2) Go to Harvard -> Likely to be successful</p>
<p>The equivalent statement would be:
1) Not likely to be successful -> Not go to Harvard
2) If you are not likely to be successful, you did not go to Harvard.</p>
<p>Now I am not arguing that the above statement is correct, I am just looking at the logical structure. You statement does not follow because it affirms the consequent, which is fallacious.</p>
<p>JackBlackPowerHour you are a complete moron...you can start rumors all you like. going to brown or harvard or any ivy for that matter does secure your life...i know someone who went to a community college and is an alcholic or a drug addict. if i knew someone at harvard who is an alcholic or drug addict, at least i know that he has an education and once out of rehab can easily find a job given his credentials...</p>
<p>being determined doesn't mean jackcrap...you can be determined you will probably be a mailman that drop out and work at Mcidies if you go to a bad school you still might have a good internship and get a good life and be successful but if you go to an ivy, it is a guarantee.</p>
<p>Going to Harvard is success. Well, success in high school, not neccessarily in life. Success to me at this time is getting into Harvard. Success when i get there will get good grades for law or med school. then to just survive grad school. then get a good job. then advance my job. retire rich. stay alive. every point of my life has some sort of goal, and at this time my goal is to get into HYPMS.</p>
<p>I have to disagree with some of you. Getting into Harvard undergrad will NOT guarantee you success. </p>
<p>The reason that most people who go to Harvard become successful is because they are a rare group of extremely determined people. There seems to be a confusion here: success comes from those who attend, not from the school itself (well, not ONLY). </p>
<p>There are other schools which are of almost equal caliber in certain departments (of course, H is first in pretty much everything) which can bring you an education of very similar quality. If you are as determined as a Harvard student, you can become as successful as a Harvard student.</p>
<p>My examples earlier were to illustrate exceptions. Going to a nothing school in the middle of nowhere will most likely not bring you success and going to Harvard most likely will. I'm just saying that one of the reasons for this are the students which constitute such schools and their degree motivation.</p>
<p>You don't have to agree with me, this is really just an opinion of mine. And if there were statistics showing degree of determination and motivation by school, they would surely prove my point.</p>
<p>No that makes sense; a bad student won't find success at Harvard and a good student could find success at a less prestigious college. I agree with that statement.</p>
<p>
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I have to disagree with some of you. Getting into Harvard undergrad will NOT guarantee you success.
[/quote]
This is not what you said initially, and is not the point of the argument. Getting into Harvard surely does not guarantee success. But the fact that one went to Harvard will have a positive bearing on success. The correlation was your original argument, not the guarantee. Your exception, though able to disprove the guarantee, cannot disprove the correlation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The reason that most people who go to Harvard become successful is because they are a rare group of extremely determined people. There seems to be a confusion here: success comes from those who attend, not from the school itself
[/quote]
This is a common confounding situation in statistics, and there is a simple solution to determine the answer, which I will explain below.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are other schools which are of almost equal caliber in certain departments (of course, H is first in pretty much everything) which can bring you an education of very similar quality. If you are as determined as a Harvard student, you can become as successful as a Harvard student.
...
And if there were statistics showing degree of determination and motivation by school, they would surely prove my point.
[/quote]
The confounding situation is this: as you said, both the characteristics of the candidate and the school they attended will have an effect on their success. Your argument is: since strong personal characteristics correlate positively with attending a great school, and since attending a great school correlate positively with success, ergo personal characteristics correlate directly with success, and the intermediate variable, attending a great school, has no bearing. This argument, strictly from a logical standpoint, is of course faulty. From an empirical standpoint, the validity of your claim can be verified by resolving the confounding situation in a statistical study. This is easily done with a controlled study: with two groups of students, of equal personal merit, but with one group having attended Harvard and the other attended a less prestigious school. This study would eliminate the variable of personal characteristics from consideration, and view success purely associated with school attendance. Unless such a study is conducted and find there to be no association, your point remains invalid.</p>
<p>I think mr. "just to remind you all" wouldn't be saying that if he could actually get in. Dude, if you know you'll get rejected, just get rejected with pride. Dont' post b.s. crap about success.</p>