This is very interesting perspective. May add one year in the whole process if masters and PhD is at different places but this is a very good point.
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That is interesting.
Yeah this is certainly true of him. He has been dreaming Bio and Math since 10th :-). He is not super strong in Chemistry actually but still wants to do Biochemistry go figure!
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Will ask him to check these. He had not applied to honors for some reason. May try to get in second year if worthwhile.
Thanks much. Donāt think we had seen this. @Aneesh_Pant
See if thereās a process he can still participate in for his 1st year if he looks at the large public universities.
For a student who found a section of 40 large, and is comfortable with a class size under 15, a lecture hall with hundreds of students can be exhilarating or alienating. Has he attended a student day and sat on a few intro classes (1 math/science 1 humanities would be my recommendation)?
Students who found the lectures exhilarating typically liked to be anonymous, sit back, and listen to brilliant minds. They found having to formulate their own thoughts and/or listening to otherās, tedious or a waste of time. They liked working in groups with people theyād chosen if they wanted to, ie. wanted to organize group work on their own or not at all.
Students who found large lecture halls alienating typically liked interactive classes, small group discussion (didnāt think 30 or 40 student sections were āsmall groupā), liked academic sociability (v. sociability around sports or partying or hall location), wanted the professor to know them by name (hated office hours with TAs or lack of personal advising till junior year for instance), liked personal contact and disliked anonymity.
As you can see from the schedule posted above, required intro chem and math classes have 16-30 students at Kalamazoo except one that seems to have more. Some of the classes are full at 30 but some only have 16 students with 30 possible spots.
Basically, if heās in the top 1-5% at a large university he can do phenomenal research. (Itās harder if heās not in Honors but it can be done; UCās, in particular, do not have many honors programs, so that the top 1-5% may compete among themselves after grad students, though I suppose the Honors section would have an āinā if theyāre already known by name/performance). The issue is what if heās, say, top 25% among his peers and thus never talks to a science professor till junior year and never has a shot at any research - the most common experience for public university students.
At Kalamazoo heās certain to be able to do research, probably could join a lab as early as freshman year, but the lab will be less impressive. The issue is, will he be able to get a summer research position at a prestigious lab (does Kalamazoo facilitate that, including for international students)?
Note that at UIUC, students donāt apply to Honors: did he receive an Honors acceptance after his admission? The latest the info is sent is April 1st. You may want to check with him because itād make a big difference in access to professors, access to research, size of some required classes, especially freshman year.
These discussions may be of interest
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Wow this is very useful. Without doubt he and I would imagine most people would want personal interaction with professors and not remain anonymous. I think this could be difficult till junior year.
One of his friends just finished bachelors from UCSD and got in at MIT for PhD in life sciences. Based on GPA I donāt think he would be top 1-5% in class academics. However he could get research experience from first year in UCSD and multiple summer research experiences in other top Universities sealed the deal. I believe he also got in Berkeley.
Overall I believe he will be able to handle any of the environments. If preference of experience is the question then of course Kalamazoo would be preferred by him and us in that regards.
We are doing some data mining around K bachelors and top University PhDs online. Will finalize based on some of these findings and feedback on CC.
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We have not heard anything about Honors from UIUC as yet BTW. However, I feel his profile is not that strong for these top schools.
Two more examples: My high school classmate went to Juniata, a school roughly equivalent in size and prestige to Kalamazoo, for an undergraduate degree in physics. He did his PhD at MIT and later shared the Nobel Prize in physics. My brother-in-law, also a Juniata graduate, went on to earn his PhD in geology at Brown.
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Rather than GPA, is there a way for you to know his grades in the specific area/field that is related to his research?
(PIās wonāt care whether a student has a B- in US History or got a C in Spanish, but they do want students who stood out in their field so Iād be surprised if his friend was middle of the road in that subject.)
Summer research experiences matter a lot, regardless of where your son is.
Not all students want interaction with professors. Many are very content to just sit. Thatās why, even if professors have office hours (they may not, something to check; how many and is it the professor, prof+TA, or just TA?) not that many students show up.
You/he could check with UIUC to see whether the Honors invitation has been sent or what date they could expect to hear back.
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Oh wow! Went to respective graduate schools directly from the LAC?
That is a very good point. Will ask my son to check if he wants to.
We live in Michigan, and Kalamazoo has a reputation for being a solid college with a particularly strong Chemistry program. I donāt know the history, but it appears that years ago the school decided to put their limited resources into building that program. Frankly, in state, that is the main draw for Kalamazoo.
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Yes they did.
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It might be worthwhile to imagine possible outcomes if your student does NOT end up being exceptional in college. Letās say he doesnāt end up with grades or GRE scores that put him in contention for a T5-10 graduate school. Or letās say he changes his mind and no longer wants the start-up lifestyle and instead wants to be a āregularā research PhD at a biotech company, or a professor at a non-elite schoolā¦ or something else entirely. Will an undergrad degree from UCSD vs. Kalamazoo vs. UW etc. put him in a better position for opportunities in the location(s) where he is most likely to reside as an adult, or wonāt it matter?
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While it appears that your son already has a plan for getting a PhD in BioChem or another life science field, that may change after he is exposed to relevant classes and/or internship. It might be wise to steer toward universities that are strong in many fields so he would have options should he decide to switch majors. UIUC and UC Davis would provide more options to your son, should he want to change his major.
The schools to which he was accepted vary greatly in size, and therefore student experience. Kalamazoo has under 1,300 students, while UIUC has over 56,000. He will almost certainly be in smaller classes and have better access to professors at Kalamazoo than at one of the large state schools. Which schools has he visited?
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Yes. That is why they also are PhD feeder to Umich and Michigan State. Primarily local students. But last few years trying to increase international exposure. Their AO is coming to India in a couple of weeks for marketing.
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We live in India and weāre not thinking of visiting before deciding. If Oberlin was in contention we might have visited K, Wooster and Oberlin. But Oberlin has offered ridiculously low financial aid so we are not considering it anymore.
Since my wife did her bachelors in a large school and I did MS and PhD in large schools we can give him some feel for large school atmosphere.
LACs and what experiences he will get we canāt guide him other than online, video chat discussions etc.
UIUC has about 32K undergrads. OPās S was accepted to UCSD, not UCD. Changing majors at any of those schools is limited to those that are not space constrained, and many have GPA requirements to make the change as well. Yes, Kzoo will have smaller classes on average than the state schools, as well as easier access to profs (at least for the first year or two), and Kzoo is a fine, reputable and rigorous school in many academic disciplines.
For OP, linking to a tableau of the National Science Foundation database for doctorates and their undergrad school for 2016-2020: Doctoral recipients by bachelor's degree-granting institution, 2016-2020 and 61 years of data: Baccalaureate origins of doctoral recipients
Source data here (somewhere!): Doctorate Recipients from U.S. Universities: 2021 | NSF - National Science Foundation
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Yes we have studied PhD productivity of baccalaureate colleges depth! Reed is an outlier but K, Oberlin and Wooster do very well. K is in top 100 in all the 7 categories! It is kind of a mystery.
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