Keeping the Dream Alive (What I Have Learned While Reading CC Posts)

Parent Cafe
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<p>Hi, everyone, </p>

<p>Now that the 2006 Memorial Day weekend is past, the school year is over or almost over for most high school students, and most of next year's college students know where they are going to college, I thought I'd celebrate a year and a half of CC participation by summing up some tips I've learned or refined while reading the posts here on CC. In replies below this post, I'll mention what I think are helpful ideas for students who dream of a hard-to-get-into college to help kee their dream alive. I'm sure other CC participants will share, as they so often do, other helpful advice. Let's keep the dream alive for applicants in the coming years.</p>

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<p>In one of my first CC posts, I asked about planning</a> way ahead for applying for college. That thread shared a lot of useful information, and particularly interesting to me was that many of the young people who posted in that thread appear to have gotten into their first-choice programs. Starting early to gather information about various colleges, about what colleges look for in applicants, and about how to pay for college seems to be helpful and increase possibilities for the future. It's great that CC makes early information available to parents like me (whose oldest child is thirteen as I post this) who would be unlikely to get useful information from a high school counselor. </p>

<p>It appears that early preparation reduces rather than increases pressure on an applicant. The student has time to weigh what's really special about each college, and to align a high school program with his or her own passionate interests. It also means that application essays, college interviews, and everything else about the application process is less rushed and harried. </p>

<p>I like early visits to the National</a> College Fair events as one aspect of early planning. What do you recommend for getting ready early for college applications?</p>

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<p>My older son is also 13. I've learned a great deal from CC posters, but perhaps most importantly I've learned just how difficult it is to gain acceptance to an elite university. My son's dream is to go to MIT. I would have assumed that, if all goes well, he would be admitted. I've learned that if all goes well, he'll be seriously considered and will have a 10-20% chance of admission. My son has read some of the articles and other materials I've learned about here, and he understands the situation. His dream is still MIT, but he will not count on going there and he understands that there are plenty of other schools that can meet his needs.</p>

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<p>Yes, the numbers look daunting when one gets the whole national perspective on college admission. Every year on CC there are stories of applicants who were at the top of the class in their high school who don't get into their dream schools for college.</p>

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<p>Another important thing to remember (and also one of the things that one learns on CC) is that the kids who DON'T get into their dream schools often end up just as happy as those who do. (There are some wonderful old threads on this subject).</p>

<p>That says a lot about how resilient kids are, and also about the importance of fit.</p>

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<p>I don't mind the daunting numbers, as long as we know the situation well in advance. Most people don't, and they get a shock when they start to seriously look at colleges or, worse, when they get the rejection letters. </p>

<p>I expect that in 4 years, we will, with CC's help, have identified up to 10 great colleges where my son would be happy, and that he will get into at least one of them. And I won't be surprised if this list does not include MIT; although my older son is definitely a math/science kid, he has broad interests and may be better off elsewhere.</p>

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<p>Yes, thank you for making that point, because that is indeed a fact I learned on CC. The evidence you mentioned (that many kids report, after the fact, that they are happy in a school that initially was not their most desired school) is important to consider. The Harvard alumnus Byerly who has amassed such a huge post count here on CC often expresses the matter by saying that eighteen-year-olds are adaptable: they can get used to more than one kind of school, and certainly can get used to any of the combinations of different specific features found at similar schools. </p>

<p>So I guess the way I approach the word "fit" now is to figure that if my children have developed good fitting-in ability in their secondary education, they can choose an array of colleges to apply to at fairly low risk. Wherever they get in, they will have a chance to thrive and be happy. That's encouraging news for all of us parents, and I learned it here on CC.</p>

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<p>'"All I know about college selection I learned on CC":</p>

<p>Long-term planning for parents must focus on finances. It involves saving, researching COA or different types of colleges, financial aid policies, merit money, outside scholarships, and other related issues. It also involves talking to children about what the family can afford ahead of the actual college search.</p>

<p>Personally, I would avoid homing in on a "dream" school as a motivational factor. "Work hard if you want to get into MIT" can yield immediate dividents but can also lead to heartache down the road.</p>

<p>Encourage students to challenge themselves without pushing so as not to set them up for failure. Urge them to stay on task and develop good work habits. Encourage their academic passions in and out of school.</p>

<p>Work with GC to develop a set of classes that best fit the student's needs.</p>

<p>Encourage students to try out non-academic activities, such as sports, community service, arts, or social clubs.</p>

<p>Start thinking about college early but in a low-key manner. Visit different types of schools for the student to develop criteria for juding what is a large, mid-sized, small college/university and to get a sense of the different types of location in which such schools might be found.</p>

<p>Research a variety of schools that can fit the student's preferences and may meet the family's financial constraints.</p>

<p>Prepare for board tests.</p>

<p>Ask GC for advice about college slection. Prepare a resume for use by GC and teachers. Approach teachers for recommendationsat the end of junior year. During junior year and summer, visit or revisit colleges and narrow down the list.</p>

<p>During the summer, start writing college essays or at least thinking about essay topics.</p>

<p>In late summer, apply to schools that have rolling admission deadlines.</p>

<p>I think that more or less covers the long-term planning aspects of the college search.</p>

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<p>This I agree with. I think we on CC spend way too much energy obsessing over "fit", when the truth is that a large majority of reasonably bright and capable kids are flexible and adaptable and can fit in quite nicely and have an excellent educational experience at many different schools --> LACs, research universities, private schools, state schools, all of them. All of them have enough varied niches to accomodate just about everyone.</p>

<p>There are exceptions, particularly where special learning needs or disabilities are involved or there are huge cultural gaps to bridge (i.e. a committed atheist might not fit in very well at say BYU), but beyond that, most options can work out pretty well.</p>

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<p>I"m constantly quoting things that I've learned on CC, and my friends say, "Your son's only 13!!" but alot of it is also parenting advice which has been so helpful.......not to mention the great sense of humor that so many posters have.!</p>

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<p>Agreed, Coureur! My two kiddies attended a mixed bag of Public school from k-12, and ended up with a good education. Did the schools "fit" them.. probably not, but they were what we could afford. And, my kids learned a lot about themselves from NOT being in a school that fit, and they learned a lot of strategies about how to adapt to less than ideal situations. DD is now in a great private college; DS may end up at a public U or ??? We will be less concerned with fit and more concerned with good education and opportunities for him, and affordability for us. Some of us cannot ignore the financial aspects of college! ;)</p>

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<p>I'd been thinking of this a lot lately and don't think it's possible to overemphasize this point. I will use my S as a case study. He decided that "fit" for him would be a medium-size University, strong in Engineering, but with the full complement of arts, science and business programs should he change interests. He loved Tulane, which met all of his criteria, and headed there in fall 05. Most of you know what happened there.</p>

<p>Post-Katrina, he chose to attend Bates as a Visiting Student based on two lone factors - excellent school and in our backyard (not a factor we usually cared about, but certainly worked when you were choosing and moving to a school literally overnight). This tiny New England LAC has got to be on the opposite pole from Tulane on a host of dimensions. He loved it there, thrived academically and socially. Ditto now that he is back at Tulane.</p>

<p>Now that he has to transfer, he still has his preferences for "fit" and they still resemble his original criteria, but he has applied this time to yet other categories of schools, such as huge Big 10 Universities with strong Engineering programs. I'm sure he'll thrive at whatever type he chooses.</p>

<p>There are probably some students who are less adaptable than he. But I think we should be careful when we think about "fit" to realize that many (most?) kids can find fit in a variety of environments.</p>

<p>Sometimes, when we read a poster's College List we question outliers: "which of these things is not like the other?" It's a legitimate question, but often there is a legitimate answer to the eclectic nature of one kid's possibles.</p>

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<p>I was thinking about how to sum up the concerns about financial aid here, when I saw a post by Calmom saying what is in this post's title. I first heard this advice given in somewhat different terms by David Colfax, a homeschooling dad who has spoken at homeschooling conferences for years with his wife Micki after they wrote the book Homeschooling for Excellence. The Colfaxes both had higher education degrees, so their children were not "first-generation" college students, but the Colfaxes made a living by raising dairy goats in the mountains of northern California, and were pretty sure that they didn't have sufficient means to send their children to a good college. They were advised by a friend that the "big schools" (that is, the elite schools) are actually better endowed financially and thus better able to provide good financial aid than most other colleges. They encouraged their oldest son, who hadn't attended school since elementary age, to apply to the big schools. He was admitted to Yale, Harvard, and other desirable schools, and was able to afford Harvard because they got sufficient financial aid. That was an eye-opener to me--until then, I had never heard of anyone of economic level similar to my own being able to afford to go to private college. </p>

<p>There are a number of strategies for finding affordability in a college. The principal strategy is to consider the family's overall readiness to pay list price (pretty low, for most of us who read CC) and available channels from each college for getting a discount from list price. Don't assume you have to pay list price. </p>

<p>Some colleges discount their list prices ("provide scholarships") only for students who have means too limited to pay full list price. (That is, such colleges have stated policies of providing financial aid only on the basis of need.) But for the great majority of American families, OF COURSE list price at the most expensive schools is out of the question, so anyone at a moderate level of income and assets should definitely apply for financial aid at all schools to which Junior applies. Amazingly, there are still parents who forget to fill out the forms, but I hope no regular reader of CC would miss the huge economic opportunity that is represented by a college's financial aid application forms. </p>

<p>Some colleges discount their list prices ("provide scholarships") for students with desirable characteristics. (That is, such colleges have stated policies of providing "merit aid" to some students.) If a student has characteristics highly desired by many colleges (e.g., top grades in high school, high entrance test scores, sports ability, musical ability, etc.), then the student may be able to get substantial reductions in list price from some schools, and even stipends above and beyond list price at a few schools. But it probably takes years to lay the foundation for having that much desirability as a student (see point 1 of this thread), so this channel is most open to the student who shops around in the whole range of desirability of schools among all the schools available. If you have a child with an exceptional set of credentials, merit aid MAY (or may not) provide an even better net deal than need-based aid from another college. It definitely increases the range of affordable schools for desirable students. </p>

<p>The availability of financial aid starts before the college years. Some young people attend "prep" day schools or boarding schools on substantial scholarships, some of which are based strictly on financial need and many of which are based on some mysterious combination of merit and need. Other young people can study challenging courses through distance learning and summer programs without paying full list price. My own family's income and asset range is such that we have to pay full list price once in a while, but also get HUGE scholarships based strictly on need once in a while. To the best of my knowledge and belief, most American families with school-age children have a level of wealth similar to ours. The only way to know, at college age or at precollege age, what is on offer is to apply to each program and see what happens. Many applicants this year are reporting that schools like Princeton and Harvard with unimaginably expensive list prices are actually less expensive than State U if their family is at middle-income level. Other applicants report being offered huge benefits as part of being named a "presidential scholar" or the like at a college with merit aid. It's worthwhile to ask what's possible at each program you desire. Don't assume what you can't afford until you apply for all available discounts.</p>

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<p>The most important information I have received is to remind our children to remain flexible and open to new ideas. There can be many different dream schools. That shouldn't be the main reason to choose a school. I like the idea of finding a fit for all one's interests, rather than a match based primarily on grades and test scores, especially if a student has special considerations. It's much easier to be flexible if you are in a school that still has your major should you decide to change it.</p>

<p>Prepare well beginning in 9th grade by taking the right courses and maintaining the best grades one can. Have at least one EC you are passionate and excited about. I would also suggest taking the SAT or ACT early on to get an idea of how you are going to do and then use that information to prepare before taking it again. The students who wait until May or June of junior year to take the tests run out of time if they want to take them again. Relying on improving a score in the fall is cutting it very close.</p>

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<p>Which leads to the advice that all the College Confidential veterans know: build a college application list beginning not with a "dream" school, but with a "sure-bet" school that offers desirable characteristics (including the opportunity for the student to change paths during college years) and is affordable. </p>

<p>The definition of a safety school is a school that
1) is pretty much certain to admit my kid, based on its known behavior in acting on admission applications,
2) has a strong program in an area my kid is interested in,
3) is affordable based on its known behavior in acting on financial aid applications,
and
4) is likeable to my kid.</p>

<p>That last point, "likeable to my kid," is what I am picking up here with the quotations from Marite and MrsP. It's a good idea to encourage kids to be self-motivated and to have dreams, but also to be open to blooming where they are planted. Careful parental encouragement--including not disparaging good colleges that just don't happen to be the most elite colleges--leaves students with more possibilities that are likeable, and thus a broader range of "safety" schools at which they can have good learning experiences. </p>

<p>It IS important to make sure that at least one college on each student's application list is really, really, really safe. State universities that admit "by the numbers" often have this characteristic, but not all do. The idea is to look for a college with essentially nil possibility of rejecting the student. A college at which the learner has a 50:50 chance of getting in cannot be called a "safety." That's what is useful about the term "sure bet"--it sounds less pejorative than "safety," and the term implies that there should be no chance of going wrong in that application, which is the kind of college prudent to put on every application list.</p>

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<p>NYmomof2
My s always thought MIT was his "dream" school. He loved the research and creations that came out of their labs. He read about them all the time in Popular Science, or one of those magazines. He talked about MIT for years. Then when we went to visit it, he was sorely disappointed. He spent a full day with faculty, staff, in a class with really cool technology, inthe frats at nite, etc. He came away saying "MIT is for grad school- they don't really care about their undergrads here". He didn't even apply. So hang on... things change.</p>

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<p>When looking at class profile / common data set information ... don't put on blinders to the bits you don't like. A wart or two on your application or your child's may not matter in the end, but you do have to be careful. For example, being below the top 10 percent (or 2 percent, for that matter) can make admissions results less sure - even if SAT's and EC's are through the roof.</p>

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<p>Yes, unfortunately in a country with more than 20,000 high schools, and with some colleges that are internationally known admitting only 1600 students a year or so, there is a lot of possibility that a really outstanding high school student will be just an ordinary applicant. At some colleges, that is no problem--they are in the business of admitting students who are in the top half, but not necessarily the top 10 percent, of their high school classes. But I see every year here on CC some parents who suppose, because Junior has always been at the top of his high school class, that Junior is a shoo-in at [insert name of famous college here]. Well, not necessarily, because the top kid from every other high school in the country may be applying to the same college, and that college doesn't have room for all those valedictorians. Students who ace the SAT I test are much rarer than valedictorians, but they are still numerous enough to not be very impressive to the top colleges. </p>

<p>Thus one thing a student has to "be careful" about is to think of what else the student has done that is outstanding, besides getting good grades in high school and good scores on entrance tests. Anything that a student can do to be busy with someone important to that student, challenging and developing, will help round out an application. For applications to really, really selective colleges, it doesn't hurt at all to pursue personal interests in a way that leads to meeting high school kids with the same interest from all over the country. That can help students have "role models" and also to get news about which top colleges are of greatest interest to students with that interest. Usually, that helps a student broaden an application list (see above :) ) which in turn reduces the student's chances of dissapointment when admission decisions are issued. </p>

<p>Any student can have a bad day (taking an admission test) or a bad semester (taking a high school class). One doesn't have to be faultless to get into even the most selective college, but it helps to have perspective on the numbers both to be humble if the dream comes true, and to be resilient if the dream is rebuffed.</p>

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Well, if I'm going to be quoted, I want to make a point of clarification. The 'reach for the best' strategy must absolutely,positively, definitely also include applications to safety. schools. The higher you reach, the more likely it is you won't make it and will need that safety net. </p>

<p>Also, while "build from the bottom up" and "love thy safety" are definitely the ideal, that is can be very difficult for a kid who has criteria that the safeties aren't going to fulfill. My kid tried to start with safeties, but just didn't like them. So the solution is that is to have several safeties, and the more different they are from one another, the better. My daughter had 4, 3 of which offered merit aid when they accepted her. They were all different enough that if she had been left with her safeties in the spring, she would have had several very different schools to choose from -- I think it would have worked out fine, because even though she would have been disappointed, she would have still felt like she had a choice, and the merit awards would have helped ease the pain of rejection at preferred colleges if it had come to that. </p>

<p>The other clarification I have is with the word "best" -- best is what the kid wants the most or what seems to best fit the criteria the kid wants. If need-based financial aid is important, then it helps to be aware that the very top colleges tend to offer better aid packages than many less selective schools -- a good reason to ignore some colleges that the gc might be pushing as "matches". (No "match" if the college doesn't promise to meet full need and the kid's stats aren't good enough to garner merit aid -- better to look for another safety in that situation). </p>

<p>But other than that: "best" does not necessarily mean the most prestigious or the most selective. It just means the college that is most desired.


Agreed completely, but the flip side of that is: don't be deterred by one or two weak spots in an otherwise strong record. Be aware of the weaknesses, but build the application around the strengths. If needed, make sure to explain weaknesses that need explaining (and which have a good explanation) - in our case, my daughter made sure that the g.c. explained specific factors about her school that made it difficult to schedule some courses that a college bound student would have been expected to take.</p>

<p>And don't get too hung up on standardized test scores: good or not-so-good, they are probably the least interesting thing about any student. Great scores won't get a kid into an elite; not-so-wonderful scores won't necessarily keep a kid with a strong academic record or other significant achievements out. My daughter is a living example of the fact that a non-URM, non-athlete, RD applicant can get into highly selective colleges despite bottom-of-range test scores - so much for the "top half" of the applicant pool rule or all the other myths about which kids make up the lower half of the score range.</p>

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<p>An important lesson reinforced by CC is "Know thyself!"</p>

<p>What matters to you most in a college? prestige? location? fit? academic quality in general? or in a specific area? EC opportunities? social opportunities? campus architecture and aesthetics? political climate? diversity? financial aid?</p>

<p>Only when you know yourself do you know what to look for in reviewing colleges and making a list ranked according to preference. The most important question is "can I become the kind of person I want to be and be happy and feel accepted in this environment?"--only a positive answer to this question ensures a happy and productive 4 years.</p>