Son is scheduling for 11th grade. He is doing IB Diploma and will have math and physics at HL. He can either take his group 6 (music) in 11th and 2 electives in 12th or take 1 elective each year. He’s leaning towards music in 11th to get the SL testing out of the way. But, is there any class he should consider taking instead so it’s on the transcript before applying? Or is there anything you’d suggest is a “must have” elective and key to doing well in engineering or computer science?
He’s in or finished biology and chemistry at regular levels. AP computer science is being offered next year for the first time, but he programs on a robotics team. We have AP chem and bio. We have IB biology, but only HL, which gives him way too much HL. No IB chem.
I don’t know the IB curriculum at all, but it seems like he’s hitting the right math and physics classes. If he’s applying to any of the California publics, a year of visual performing arts is a requirement. If he is, is it a music theory class or a music performance class?
I understand IB (but from 10 years ago). It sounds like he has made good decisions for engineering prep - Calc and physics are key.
I think the other choices should revolve around his preferences and class schedule challenges (which can be an issue, especially at smaller schools). The high school guidance counselor may have further insights.
During the college search, I found there were a surprising number of students who (like our son) were interested in engineering and music too. I think it’s great if engineering students have music (or sports or other interests) as counterbalance to intense engineering studies.
He’s on the robotics team and about 1/4 of them are in marching band. A few more in non-marching and a couple in the orchestra. While the kids aren’t all technical kids, it does say something!
The only CA school I’d consider if you are from a state that has a program as solid as Michigan is Cal Poly. First, know I’m very biased, as my son graduated from there from OOS. Certainly it’s all relative and a matter of opinion, but from our perspective none of the other schools seemed worth it. UC Berkeley is now $70k OOS. Cal Poly is $44k. Couple that with its idyllic location and fairly unique way they educate engineers* it would be worth a look.**
*CP has labs for every engineering class, even the advanced ones like vibrations and rotational dynamics (over 80 in the CENG alone) that are just mathy lectures at other schools. The projects that come out of those labs are on par with senior projects at most other schools. A Georgia Tech grad confirmed as much. His sister is one of my son’s friends from CP. When he looked at her labs and senior project, he said it was significantly more that what was expected and what was happening at GT. Now remember, I’m HIGHLY biased.
**Don’t sweat any of this too much. My son works at a startup with a guy who is one of the best in the world at what he does. He’s been high up at several very well known companies for quite a few years prior. He went to Michigan Tech. It’s debatable whether it’s even the third best program in Michigan. Engineering is VERY egalitarian. It favors curiosity, intelligence and work ethic regardless of the paper a grad holds.
Thanks. He will tell people he wants to go to Michigan because he feels like he has to have an answer to that question :). But, we have not toured or really looked into anything. He is a strong student, but at a pretty average school, I think. I just want to be sure he leaves options open so he can have choices when the time comes. We are going to tour either Michigan or Michigan State over our spring break, just to get started.
I went to Michigan Tech. Until recently it was just “the school mom attended” to him, lol. And it seems way too far and cold for him. But, now he has friends there who love it, so I’m sure we will go visit and check it out too.
So you have some or the best schools at the best costs in Michigan. Michigan, Michigan State, Wayne State , Kettering and Mich Tech. Anyone of those will get him where he wants to go. All have pro and cons. Take the highest math and physics he can. Starting at Calc 1 or beyond is key especially for Michigan. 1/3 of their marching band are engineers. Also lots of baseball kids seem to be in engineering. Engineering and music is very common BTW.
Programming for Robotics is not computer science AP. If he’s interested in it great but don’t take classes that you think will get him in. Challenging rigorous classes that he can do well in is key.
Look at Naviance at your school to see how many kids applied and got into “X” school. Michigan yearly is becoming challenging to get into even for instate kids.
Minimum high school preparation for a prospective engineering student:
Math through precalculus (in IB, math AA SL).
High school physics.
High school chemistry.
General well rounded high school base curriculum in other subjects (English composition, other humanities and social studies).
However, high school students should consider going beyond the minimum if available to them:
Calculus (in IB, math AA HL).
AP chemistry or IB chemistry HL may give advanced placement in college chemistry, which is often a peripheral requirement for engineering majors (of course, it is much more important for chemical, biomedical, or biological/agricultural engineering).
AP physics 1/2 or IB physics HL will give a stronger physics background, but no advanced placement for calculus-based physics in college.
AP physics C may give advanced placement for calculus-based physics in college, but often does not because it is based on less advanced math than calculus-based physics in college (particularly for E&M).
High school biology or more advanced versions (AP or IB HL) are primarily useful for engineering students in biomedical or biological/agricultural engineering, or other types of engineering applied to biomedical or biological/agricultural applications (e.g. materials or mechanical engineering for prosthetics, chemical engineering for drugs, etc.).
More rigorous course selection in other subjects (English composition, other humanities and social studies).
Computer science in high school is a nice-to-have for all students, due to the presence of computers everywhere, but not essential except for those considering a major in computer science (who probably want to sample the subject before deciding whether to major in it).
Thanks. I’ve been asking people with older kids and it seems of the 20 or so who they know who applied to Michigan this year, 2 got in and the rest deferred. Most are in the IB program with very good grades. Looks tough!
I was talking with the IB coordinator earlier this week and found out that Math AA HL will cover through AP Calculus AB only. There is not very much calculus in it. She think he will still be challenged in the class.
He did decide to take Music SL next year. He’s now debating between Psychology SL and History HL. Such decisions.
Math - through IB Math AA HL
Science - biology, chemistry, IB Physics HL
Social Studies - APUSH, AP World, maybe IB History HL or maybe IB Psychology SL
English - AP Lang, IB English Lit HL
Foreign Lang - through IB Chinese SL. He might take AP Chinese in 12th just to not lose ground.
He’ll have 2 or 3 elective spots in 12th grade. Sounds like AP Chemistry, AP Computer Science, and maybe Calculus BC might be good choices for at least 1 slot.
AP calculus BC would have substantial duplication with IB math AA HL. He may want to check whether he can take calculus 3 at a local college if he completes IB math AA HL before 12th grade.
Calculus AB is not an insubstantial amount of Calc. Calc BC is essentially an AB recap, plus 25-30% more. My son entered with BC, but any student entering with a solid AB foundation should be just fine.
@ucbalumnus I’ve looked at that and hope that schools start to put Math AA and Math AI soon so we can compare. The school does have some dual enrollment online classes, but I don’t know if Calc 3 is one. Going to a college would be difficult, I think.
@eyemgh Thank you. They are doing the Calc AB and BC as a sequence, so AB is the pre-req. I don’t know yet how it’ll all work out.
The school tries to be too many things to too many different groups of people, I think.
@Luanne, Some schools let students with sufficient backgrounds jump directly into BC and skip AB. My son’s school didn’t. Suffice it to say, either is plenty prep to enter engineering as a freshman. If you can afford it, do opt for dual enrollment and AP. Depending on where he ends up, sometimes DE is better than AP. My son’s Chemistry DE got him completely out of chemistry where as an AP test for the same class would have only gotten him out of half of it.
He could do AP for sure with IB. DE is harder. I know there is a partnership for online dual enrollment classes, but he’s not sure he wants to take online classes. Going to a community college is inconvenient.
I’m not familiar enough with IB to comment. It varies from school to school. In general DE is seen as most powerful because it is actual college credit. At my son’s school AP AB will advance a student into Calc 2. AP BC into Calc 3. IB Math will advance them into Calc 2, but there’s no IB route into Calc 3.
It is certainly an advantage to be ahead. Starting in Calc 3 and Physics 2 had multiple benefits for my son. That said, he was the exception, not the rule. As @ucbalumnus alluded to, most programs assume a minimum of just pre-calc at the beginning of the curriculum.
Michigan is actually one of the less friendly colleges in accepting transfer credit from other colleges (including Michigan community colleges). It has a fairly large transfer credit database, but many common courses like calculus 1 and calculus 2 from other colleges are not accepted, so high school students doing dual enrollment college courses may have to repeat them if they attend Michigan. https://www.ugadmiss.umich.edu/TCE/Public/CT_TCESearch.aspx
@ucbalumnus, I don’t know if it is this way everywhere, but my son’s school offered the best of both worlds. Every class that had a DE option was an AP class. Students had the option of paying for DE, but also could take the AP test. Cal Poly was very helpful in counseling him which way he should use his DE and/or AP for maximum effect.