<p>Armando, how does snitching get you killed?</p>
<p>Don't attack spideygirl, she presented a better argument than you, which basically said, "I get killed if I snitch, so nobody should ever snitch." That is essentially your argument and quite frankly, I don't buy it. Sorry.</p>
<p>I agree with Armando, and YES, spideygirl was completely taking my quote of of context.</p>
<p>@ murkeywater, only on CC will people whine about smarter people getting into college. I don't particularly value hard work and neither does the real world, doesn't matter how hard you work, it's what you get accomplished.</p>
<p>"Someone needs to check what's more important." </p>
<p>I really don't care, this is purely a moral argument, to me, getting to job done is more important than how to do it to a reasonable extent, no murder or extortion and whatnot. An obviously you think that the end justifies the means if you don't care about the motives of the snitch. And I like how you assume that I cheat when I already stated that I do not.</p>
<p>Also, you use morals as your argument and ignore the fact that Armando's main argument against snitching is the fact that he doesn't think that it's moral.</p>
<p>This whole thing is about morals and isn't going to get anywhere.</p>
<p>"@ murkeywater, only on CC will people ***** about smarter people getting into college."</p>
<p>It's murkywater, first of all. Second, cheating does not make you smarter. If you can't do it on your own, then you don't know the material and therefore are dumber than the person who did it on their own. Getting an A through cheating doesn't make you smarter because you didn't actually learn the material. How does that mean you're smarter?</p>
<p>"I really don't care, this is purely a moral argument, to me, getting to job done is more important than how to do it to a reasonable extent, no murder or extortion and whatnot."</p>
<p>You put qualifiers such as murder, extortion, etc. to make your argument sound better. Mine doesn't need any. So one person can lie, cheat or steal in order to get the job done, and another can get it done honestly. To me, the latter is much more qualified academically than the former. Maybe colleges can't tell the difference, but I certainly can. There is no moral argument -- it's pure common sense. But it sounds like you don't buy common sense, so maybe I shouldn't bother.</p>
<p>And on CC, people only want to get into college. They don't care about being dishonest, lying, harming others, etc. to get it done. To me, that's a failure of character. It doesn't have to be about morals. If you harm others to get what you want, then you are depriving them of their essential rights as people. Cheating hurts people in classes where there are curves. Just because one person decided to be a moron and cheat and ruin the curve doesn't mean that other students should be deprived of becoming successful. I believe in an equal chance to succeed and cheating gives an unfair advantage to one student, or few students, compared to the majority. If you don't believe in equality, then that's why you believe cheating's okay.</p>
<p>I believe in equal rights. It's written in the constitution. Look it up if you feel like caring about other people besides yourself.</p>
<p>I never stated that cheating made you smarter. The OP already said that the cheater was incredibly smart and could easily achieve the same results without cheating.</p>
<p>Wow, it's called a joke. Let me make my stance clearer then, If you can achieve the same results cheating as not cheating, then morally, I don't care if you do it. And yes, it is about morals because you personally think that it is morally wrong for someone to cheat while I think that it is okay as long as you could have achieved the same results without cheating. How is that common sense?</p>
<p>And if they could easily achieve the same results without cheating, then why don't they? Do they think it's some fun stunt they can do to later rub it in hardworking students' faces? I have to question why they would do this.</p>
<p>I don't think it's morally wrong for anyone to cheat. I think it's wrong because it hurts other people and deprives them of equal opportunity, which is present in the Constitution. I do care about other people and I care about everyone's right to the pursuit of happiness. People who cheat deprive others of their pursuit to happiness and so I think that person is in the wrong. It's not a question of morals. It's a question of common sense. If it means hurting other people to get what you want, its' wrong. There's no morals about it. There's no morals in wanting equality. </p>
<p>You really don't believe in equality, because you think it's okay that someone has an unfair advantage, which a cheater always does. It doesn't matter if he could do it without cheating, because he didn't. He cheated, had an unfair advantage, and there was not a level playing field. It's not wrong because it's immoral. It's wrong because it's common sense.</p>
<p>To me, everything you stated, "equal opportunity", "pursuit of happiness", etc. is about morality, or at the very least, just your opinion. Mine happens to be the opposite, IRL, no one is on the same playing field or "equal". Before you whine about cheating, whine about poor schools, bad environments, abusive parents. Far more pressing matters than some cheating kid.</p>
<p>Okay, so lets get rid of any unfair advantage, those smart kids? Hold them back and wait for the dumb kids to catch up. Pretty people? Athletic people? No one is on an even playing field. This kid is smart to begin and could have achieved the same results. Sure he gets to spend his time playing video games and not studying, but IMO, apart from inherent intelligence, he doesn't have an advantage.</p>
<p>Oh, and no, I don't believe true equality exists.</p>
<p>"Before you whine about cheating, whine about poor schools, bad environments, abusive parents. Far more pressing matters than some cheating kid."</p>
<p>Avoiding the issue and saying that there are more important issues is a logical fallacy. It doesn't address this issue, which could be more or less important, but is still an issue, regardless of importance.</p>
<p>What? I didn't say that holding back smart kids would be the right thing to do. I believe in equality of opportunity, not in equality of result. Stop twisting my words and my argument. It's NOT about equality of opportunity. Don't build straw-men arguments only to knock them down. That's not what I was saying -- that was what was convenient for you to hear.</p>
<p>You don't have to believe in true equality. I think that equality of opportunity, no matter how difficult to achieve, should be attempted. Cheating is NOT equality of opportunity. I think if a dumb kid and a smart kid are in the same class, they should have the same opportunity to get into a good school, if that means a standardized exam, so be it. If the smart kid cheats, regardless of whether he could have done it without cheating, it's an UNFAIR advantage. </p>
<p>I'm not whining about cheating. If you can't stop name-calling or reducing the matter by calling me a whiner, then stop posting. It's frustrating to have a decent argument if the other person can't make a logical argument without attacking the person.</p>
<p>If you don't believe in equality of opportunity, let's go back to a time where Blacks couldn't vote, Vietnamese were put into camps during the Vietnam war, etc. White people had an unfair advantage. In the 1960s, if a black person was denied admission simply because of their race, you'd be all up in arms about it, saying it was racist. That's because white people had an unfair advantage. There was no equality of opportunity. If you don't support equality of opportunity, then you most likely don't support equal rights for all people. And I don't know if that's a moral argument or not, but if you don't believe in equal rights for all people, forget about whether it's a question of morality -- there is something seriously wrong with you!</p>
<p>Keyloggers are not a big deal. It's a schools responsibility to prevent new programs from being installed in their computers (besides system administrators who can actually install them), so they had it coming!</p>
<p>Back to keyloggers: I installed one on MY computer and found out that my boyfriend was cheating on me. Just asking for his email password is not worth it when he can go and create another email account in 2 minutes.</p>
<p>"If the smart kid cheats, regardless of whether he could have done it without cheating, it's an UNFAIR advantage."</p>
<p>That's unfortunate because I already stated that I feel the opposite regarding the situation. </p>
<p>Read would you? Did I say that I didn't believe in equality of opportunity? </p>
<p>Wow, I didn't even mention your veiled insults. And all I said was say that you were whining.</p>
<p>"Look it up if you feel like caring about other people besides yourself."
"But it sounds like you don't buy common sense, so maybe I shouldn't bother."</p>
<p>Logical Fallacies?</p>
<p>"If you don't believe in equality, then that's why you believe cheating's okay."
"You really don't believe in equality, because you think it's okay that someone has an unfair advantage, which a cheater always does."</p>
<p>Hey, at least my logical fallacies don't also happen to be insults.</p>
<p>Ok two situations, one where its ok to tell, the other where it isn't:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>You're taking your final exam in math and you've studied hard. In the middle of the test you notice the row next to you is cheating by sharing calculators and answers across the row; the test is graded on a curve.
-It's ok to say to the teacher after class that you believe that row was cheating so the teacher can look into it. </p></li>
<li><p>You know a kid who's been cheating throughout high school and it makes you mad, but you haven't said anything. When admissions time rolls around you find out that the kid has been admitted to Harvard. This makes you mad because to you he is just a cheater.
-It's NOT ok to go to the principle and accuse him of cheating IN THE PAST. However, if later in the year you spot him stealing tests, its ok to let the principle know ASAP about that one incident.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>See the difference. Yes the OP should let the school know that keyloggers are being used on their computers, and who knows, maybe they'll even catch the guy during THAT investigation. But it's not ok to just run and say "But hez been cheating all highschool! He doesn't deserve to get into Harvard!!".</p>
<p>If anything he should have said something WHILE he was doing the cheating. </p>
<p>All this argument on morals is just everyone arguing on the same side, just about those two situations. I believe that yes you are OBLIGATED to say something in situation 1. But in situation 2 you've gotta just let it go.</p>
<p>And on a personal note: i hope the OP is a girl, because if its a guy i'd just say: MAN UP!</p>
<p>This seems to be one of the topics where CC'ers have widely divided opinions. Just like for the concept of AA.</p>
<p>To tell or not to tell, that is the question...</p>
<p>this school must suck anyway if a kid can steal "tests" by using passwords... I didn't know this was the case... but yeah this OP must be pretty jelous... I doubt if he got into these schools he had more than just gpa... people have said it before... he probably did good on his SAT's, essays, rec', interviews and i'm pretty sure this "cheater" is quite birlliant who just doesn't want to work. Don't be the goddam* policeman... it'll catch up to him. Dont ruin somebody's life because your rank went down by 1.</p>
<p>Armando and everyone else who would like to change thousands of years of human values (which thread through every major religion)...Cheating, lying for personal gain, looking the other way when something bad happens...it's just no good. These are not MY values, these are HUMAN values. Functional ones. </p>
<p>There are places in the US right now where communities are really struggling because telling the truth, turning in the shooter or the rapist, has become "snitching". It's wrong, it's bad, and it needs to change. I have sympathy for people trying to survive while living in those conditions, yet I really worry when the kids on CC, who are probably smarter than most and are the hope of the future, think that MESSED UP value systen should be defended.</p>
<p>If you literally have to keep your mouth shut to survive, Armando, who could blame you for that? But don't defend the situation where you live, because while your reaction might be necessary the circumstance it abominable. If you presented your point by saying "This is what I think I have to do to stay alive, but when I get older and have some power I hope to make things better in my community" that would be palatable.</p>
<p>Back to the OP...Cheaters still can be turned in, for the right motivations, without getting caught as a snitch.</p>
<p>Yes, they are your values. It's purely your opinion which you're trying to force upon people with opposing opinions. Religion? Don't even try and bring that into the argument.</p>
<p>"Thousands of years of human values"? So by the fact that they've been around for a long time, they're good? Slavery and caste systems have been a long for a long time, and were very functional so we shouldn't stop them either.</p>
<p>Yeah, this is about some kid cheating, not murder or rape, rather big difference there.</p>
<p>Charisma, stop with your negative attitude. You keep making claims without any factual basis. Spideygirl isn't forcing her opinion on anyone -- she's posting it on a messageboard, just like you are, and she's allowed to, just like you are because of freedom of speech. </p>
<p>First, they are not simply spideygirl's values, nor only mine. And she didn't even bring up religion -- you did. I'm atheist and I believe in common sense. They are the values that have led to a fairer, more equal world (in equality of opportunity). If you think it's okay to lie, cheat and steal to get what you want, then so be it. But it's not a failure of morality in your character, it's a failure of common sense. I'm sure someone could cheat off of you, completely steal your papers, and then you'd finally realize how cheated you truly where. If you believed that cheating was okay, then it would become rampant, and this value system would become accepted. If a student gets a test and copies the answers, it's unfair because none of the other students were able to do so and because they most probably did not cheat. It ruins the curve. It doesn't hurt just the student, it hurts the other students who wanted to succeed as well as the teacher, who wants to make sure everyone actually has learned the material.</p>
<p>You didn't have to say that you didn't believe in equality of opportunity -- you made it clear that you thought cheating was okay, which is NOT equality of opportunity. Someone had an unfair advantage and that means they had a leg up over someone else in the process. You didn't have to say that you didn't believe in equality of opportunity, because everything else you've said implies that you don't. A cheater and a non-cheater do not have the same opportunity to succeed.</p>
<p>I wasn't insulting you. You really don't care about other people's ability to succeed, only your own (or someone who cheats over the ability to succeed of others surrounding the cheater). That's not equality of opportunity and I'm simply stating the facts.</p>
<p>And the second quote was not an insult, but I'm not surprised you thought it was -- you needed to pick at something else in my post because you can't logically argue with me. The last quote, which you thought meant I was saying you were a cheater.. that last clause was meant to clarify 'cheater' in general, not you. I meant that a cheater always has an advantage. I'm not necessarily talking about you, but I agree that it was worded incorrectly.</p>
<p>You can't believe in cheating and believe in equality of opportunity at the same time, because cheating inherently implies an unfair advantage to one person. Try again when you have a better argument. I don't even know why you defend cheating, because I thought it was just common sense (not a generally accepted value) to know that cheating is wrong.</p>
<p>And just because it's not murder, rape or something worse doesn't mean it's wrong. Stop building straw-man arguments, they won't work. Trying to avoid the issue by saying its unimportant is a logical fallacy.</p>
<p>this is hilarious haha, just tell the teachers to find the keyloggers and trace them back</p>
<p>The only thing to say here is that if you do decide to tell on the person, then do it with pure intentions and a clean heart. Do it for the benefit of academia. Don't do it to put yourself at peace that someone who possibly didn't deserve an Ivy League acceptance just lost it. Don't let your feelings of jealousy come into play.</p>
<p>And on the questions of morals, although I don't approve of cheating, I would never snitch on anybody because, like others have said, the world has a way of catching up to you. Eventually, the cheating will lead to bigger things, unless the person gets his or her act together before college starts. Maybe the person won't be able to handle a UPenn workload. But you can be certain that somewhere down the line, the person will get into serious trouble if he or she continues to cheat.</p>
<p>I don't think anybody here advocates cheating as a lot of people are attacking. I think they just don't advocate snitching on something that happened in the past in High School, its just not THAT big of a deal. So quit all this righteous "We must stand up for all of academia, those who remain silent are the culprits" stuff, you aren't batman ok?</p>
<p>If he had said something WHILE he was selling the papers, it would have been like "you're still a snitch, but if you don't like friends go for it".
but because it happened in the past, it's obviously just jealousy and to snitch on THE PERSON, not the method does nothing but isolate you from everybody. </p>
<p>I don't know what murkywater is talking about, he's blowing everything way out of proportion. This isn't an argument of values.</p>
<p>"But you can be certain that somewhere down the line, the person will get into serious trouble if he or she continues to cheat."</p>
<p>^^---> in which case, the greater moral good on both counts would have been (past tense) to "out" the cheater. Whether or not anything could practically speaking be done now, I'm not in a position to say. However, had so much as one person had the courage to report this honorably & anonymously, <em>while</em> it was happening, it would have benefitted (a) the other students, (b) the high school, (c) the cheater himself, in that a lesson would have been learned earlier rather than later.</p>
<p>When they kick you out for dishonesty in college, there's a lot less sympathy, second chances, etc. They figure you're 18, no one else is responsible for your actions but you yourself. No parents to answer to. Etc.</p>
<p>"thread through every major religion"</p>
<p>Read please, this is spideygirl's quote</p>
<p>"You really don't care about other people's ability to succeed"</p>
<p>Where the hell are you getting this? </p>
<p>"You didn't have to say that you didn't believe in equality of opportunity, because everything else you've said implies that you don't."</p>
<p>Are you even reading my posts? I said that I didn't believe that true equality exists, where everybody has the exact same opportunities and inherant personal qualities, where the whole world is 100% fair, where that kid in Ethiopia will ever have the same opportunities as the kid in Beverly Hills. But that doesn't mean that I don't think that we should try and be reasonably fair.</p>
<p>"If you think it's okay to lie, cheat and steal to get what you want, then so be it. But it's not a failure of morality in your character, it's a failure of common sense."</p>
<p>If my stance on lying, cheating and stealing isn't about morality, quite frankly, I don't see what is about morality then. Also, thanks for misrepresenting everything I've said.</p>
<p>Never did I say that I support cheating. I said that I ONLY support (and by support, I mean I don't have that much of an issue with it) cheating if the person could have achieved exactly the same results without cheating. It's my opinion that that does NOT give that person an advantage over anyone else. <-- This is pretty much the only thing I've said about what is "okay" regarding cheating. Never did I even mention lying or stealing or say that all cheating is okay.</p>
<p>I don't appreciate you trying to paint me as a horrible person who wants slavery and oppression, which you've done multiple times. Or taking my saying that you're whining as an insult yet having veiled insults (ad hominem attacks aren't very good hun) in your own posts. If you're trying to make this a decent debate, don't consistently insult me and if this is just an fight on the internet, don't whine about logical fallacies. Perhaps that is why I'm "negative".</p>
<p>I said that it's not the same scale as rape or murder, and spideygirl was the one who brought up rape and murder in the first place (aside from my original post that was being sarcastic) and yet you don't say anything about that.</p>
<p>And "you needed to pick at something else in my post because you can't logically argue with me", you were the one who brought up insults to begin with. Oh, and "you can't logically argue with me", again with the insults while claiming you never insulted me. </p>
<p>Also, "And the second quote was not an insult", I like how you never mentioned the first one, or the other two above that one. And you completely failed to comprehend why I felt insulted. It wasn't because of the cheater thing (and yes, I knew it was referring to cheaters in general) it was because of the "you don't believe in equality" thing which implies I that support slavery and internment camps, from that spiel in your earlier post.</p>