<p>Perhaps it us the parents that create an atmosphere that fosters this kind of stress and overachievement. sometimes we might do it without even realizing it.</p>
<p>Cama</p>
<p>I had a scary experience last week. As my son and I visited colleges so he could decide which one to select, we met up with a girl at one who is uber-accomplished- music/sports/language/academic- a freshman at one of the schools. Since childhood she has been a huge achiever- 'her motivation- her goals'...her parents gloried in her obvious talents and she was showered with opportunities as a result.</p>
<p>The child I saw had not had time for her cherished musical instrument throughout the year. She was not able to maintain a normal academic workload since her approach to work has historically been to work every task to perfection. She could not remember to keep appointments with adults who are her resources. She was fragile and quivering and now she is not in school. She has been 'diagnosed' with various problems...but in reality, that is only one side of the coin. </p>
<p>Beyond the issue of the horror of stress induced behaviors as described in previous posts, there is a broader reality.</p>
<p>Kids perhaps are being prepared for college, they are not being prepared for life. IN real lives people cannot do everything perfectly. In real lives we are not spending 6 hours/day on extra-curriculars. We figure out what we like to do, what we are good at or want to get better at, and we do it- but first we take care of 'the business of living.'</p>
<p>Preparation for college does not have to be mutually exclusive with preparation for life. I think kids can ask themselves a few simple questions which ultimately will lend integrity to their college applications and meaning to their lives. Namely, is this an activity I hope to continue to pursue in college and as an adult, or am I only doing this for the application. And, would I be doing this if my parents weren't making me do so?</p>
<p>The girl I mention may not have realized how much time her mother contributed per week to her well being- behind the scenes organizing, gentle reminders, help with prioritization. These being absent, she is floundering. The demands of a college classroom- where you can't possibly remember everything, where you have to figure out what is most important, where exams are more synthetic, etc...have overwhelmed her(and she had nearly perfect SAT's!). Her preparation for college was inadequate in this regards- as it may be for many kids with her approach to work. </p>
<p>Mel Levine has a new book about how we have shortchanged our kids in terms of life preparedness in part through our conspicuous overemphasis on college preparedness. In some cases, as in the case of this girl, neither is really in place, in other cases, as in those of the less fortunate kids described elsewhere, one comes at the cost of the other...</p>
<p>I agree with Curmudgeon, although I obviously am not nearly as good a writer as he is. If the motivation to "overdo" comes from within, as is the case with his daughter, it is probably not a harmful thing. Some people flourish with that sort of schedule and pressure. It is when the stress comes from outside, either from the student comparing himself or herself to peers, or trying to meet the unreasonable expectations of parents, that the stress is harmful and undesirable.</p>
<p>I am not sure that 15 year olds or 18 year olds are fully equipped to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy stress, internal and external motivation. </p>
<p>I think there is a bandwagon out there and people are not all as brave as Carolyn and willing to jump off...</p>
<p>I am sure Cur is sincere in saying he would like his daughter to slow down a bit, but I am also sure that the insiduous support to keep going comes from many angles...not all of it parental.</p>
<p>Parents are not afraid to set limits when it comes to driving/curfews/etc...is this so different???</p>
<p>Keeping a bigger picture goal in mind, not just college admissions, seems to provide the impetus for balance (not well roundedness, not over achievement)....</p>
<p>D surpassed all athletic aspirations I ever had for her in the 7th grade when she made the A team. In the 9th she passed me in mathematics. I made an A in an Honor's Section of college Physics and can't help her with AP.</p>
<p>I told D on her 14th birthday that I had taken my hands off her bike a long time ago. She'd been pedalling on her own for a while. I think she understood. I continue to tell her.</p>
<p>I help when I'm asked and when I'm capable of providing help. "I have no idea, but I'll help you find out" is the usual form my answers take. I have always admitted my limits as a coach/tutor/parent and that helps me maintain some limited amount of parental perspective about my child's achievements of which I am unapologetically proud.</p>
<p>Doesn't mean I can't worry that she's leaving some childhood in her pocket, that she'll never be able to spend.</p>
<p>
Excuse me while I go to nominate the above, as well as the entirety of carolyn's post #6 on the College Confidential Writing awards.</p>
<p>My S, by being one of the "refusers" unwittingly guided me away from the pressure-inducing behaviors long ago. As far as I'm concerned, he does "good enough." He is into a great, non-HYPS school, with merit aid even. But he always managed to get one B+ to go with the rest of the A's; his PSAT's were underwhelming... and so I never got to the mainlining. Believe me, with any sort of encouragement (after all, I'm a HYPSer myself), I'm sure I would have.</p>
<p>As far as I know, S is not doing much in the way of studying for his 2 AP exams. He refused to take the third - he doesn't care and neither do I. He got a 3 (not a 4 or 5) on last year's AP. So he doesn't enter college with very many credits in his back pocket? So he takes a "lesser" English intro class - his attitude is it will be less pressure and he can devote his attention to his Engineering/math/science classes and the non-academic side of college.</p>
<p>I feel lucky. He, by his behavior, has educated me.</p>
<p>Roby, </p>
<p>I hope you didn't think I was disagreeing with your post, which was right above mine. I was just responding a few posts too late to Curmudgeon's post. I totally agree with you that a situation like that of the young lady you described is awful. Her parents did her no favor in allowing her life to unfold as it did until she departed for college. It doesn't matter how smart or talented someone is if they can't function without their parent holding their hand. Obviously, self-reliance, self-organization, and life skills are at least as important, if not more important, than academic preparation for college.</p>
<p>It is just that I can relate to Cur's story about his daughter because it reminds me of my son when he was a junior in high school. He was always studying, preparing for APs or SAT2s, at sports practice or meet, at math team, helping a friend study ...... He actually enjoyed his studies (for the most part) and often went beyond what was being taught in class out of his own interest. He also had a goal of attending a top college, and our high school did not prepare students adequately for SAT2s, etc. in some subjects, so he had to learn large blocks of material on his own. </p>
<p>From what Cur has posted about his daughter, she does not sound unbalanced or lacking in life skills. Apparently, she schedules her studying and sports well enough that she doesn't miss her favorite TV show - even though she might have to pass on eating out with her parents! We must have our priorities :) The fact that part of her "busyness" involves helping her friends to study or try out for drum major or whatever demonstrates that she is a well-rounded person to me. And he has posted in the past about all that their family does on the ranch, which is definitely far from the realm of being buried in an AP Calculus or Physics book. </p>
<p>Actually, as I finish writing this, a thought has occurred to me. The contrast between these two young women, your acquaintance and Cur's daughter, demonstrates just the point I was trying to make about the difference between someone who is motivated from within and someone who is driven to excess by external pressures.</p>
<p>That was a wonderful post, carolyn... sad, yet so true. </p>
<p>Coming into my junior year (this year), the pressure was on, as was relentlessly reiterated by just about everyone I knew, most of all myself. I was signed up for college- level seminar english and US history, the hardest physics class available, precalc, and honors german, plus numerous time- intensive EC's. I knew it was a lot, but I figured I'd do what it took to get into the Ivies. I had no real concept of what toll it would take on the rest of my life.</p>
<p>It didn't take long for things to spiral downwards; the academic pressure, combined with personal things that transpired around the same time, became overwhelming. By late September, I'd become depressed, and by October I'd developed an eating disorder. My grades plummeted, and I had just become a pretty unbearable person to be around... I was so stressed and tired. </p>
<p>By the end of December, I'd hit rock bottom at 86 pounds: everything going on personally and academically just became too much to handle. My academics and extracurriculars, which I had previously been passionate about, had morphed into my chief sources of stress and worry. It was then that I began to wonder: is it really worth all this?</p>
<p>Four months and 16 pounds later, I've finally reached a balance. So I'm not in honors math and science. Big deal. I can finally devote timeto the subjects and activities I really care about. I'm enjoying life, which I've realized is in the long run so much more important than any Ivy acceptance. And if admissions officers disapprove, so be it. I love to learn and try new things, and I work hard; I'll be ok, and so will everyone else here. I'm hoping for Swarthmore or Smith, but if it doesn't happen, that's ok...a person's success in life is not contingent on which school they went to. Some people thrive on stress, others do not. It is so easy to get caught up in the frenzied overcommitment competition. It's much harder to step back and ask yourself whether you're truly benefitting or not. I learned this the hard way, but I'm awfully glad i did :)</p>
<p>ladylazarus--You have a lot of wisdom for a 15 yr old. I'm sorry it had to be gained at such a cost. But at least you learned early and still have all your life ahead of you. Some people take much, much longer to learn that lesson, and some never do...</p>
<p>May you continue to find the balance that is right for you.</p>
<p>I didn't go to college so to me College has always been like a secret place high on the mountain where all the mysteries of the world are revealed ,OK so I fantasize a bit.</p>
<p>When it came to our Son I was always on him about doing homework, do extra work!, gotta get A's! My wife would tell me to relax don't worry about the homework, he does not need to do the extra classes if he doesn't want to. it is more important that he grows up happy. he will do just fine etc
He hit a few bumps in the academic road during 9th and 10th grade, again my wife told me to relax he is going to do just fine.</p>
<p>He took a college course locally and then more college courses in a summer program. I worried that he wasn't taking it seriously and working hard enough . Again my wife said to relax and let him do it his way.</p>
<p>In the end he didn't get in any of the Ivies or the so-called little Ivies I had hoped for. But he found a college with a professor that has done 30 years of work in his little niche of philosophy (early-wittgenstein-analytical-something) who will allow him some independent study in that area to help prepare for grad school. The boy is happy as a pig in slop.</p>
<p>And as usual my wife is right he will do just fine</p>
<p>BTW It is a good thing that I only found CC a couple of weeks ago. if I had known about all these abbreviated things that matter in college admissions I would have driven my wife insane.</p>
<p>Bill</p>
<p>bravo carolyn, bravo!</p>
<p>I missed carolyns post,
What a tragic story, One of the worst days of my life was attending the funeral of a friend's 17 year old son who had committed sucide.
Good for you and daughter that you both have discovered that happiness is more important than academic success</p>
<p>carolyn, thanks for sharing your story with us on CC. I have 3 Ss with 2 in college and #3 a high school junior. In the years since #1 entered college (he's taken some time off so is a bit older), high school esp here
in our town seems more stressful. My two older Ss say college is way easier cuz you take more subjects you're truly interested in and usually you can plan your schedule with later classes. #1 is in a HYPS school and comments how intense and stressed out the underclassmen are. What's the most important is that our kids be healthy and happy and have time to smell the roses.</p>
<p>I read Carolyn's story first time around, but it is still a shock reading it again.
There are so many issues involved in kids working too hard.<br>
There are parents who misguidedly push their kids too hard thinking that this is the only way they'll get into college (read a top college). My S was just telling me about a junior on track to be valedictorian next year who seems to have no life. He studies on Saturdays and Sundays. There are kids and their parents who feel that school is like a contest; it's best captured in the Asian parent joke (kid: "I got a 99%." Dad: "Where did the other 1% go? Who did better than you?"). There are kids who are slackers but there are kids who are perfectionists and don't know their own limits. I remember talking to the mom of one such kid back in 7th grade. She was commenting that her D would do at least 3 drafts of the first draft of a paper and had to be prevented from doing a fourth. And then there are the kids Roby talks about, whose parents more or less unobtrusively organize things for them so that they can concentrate on their studies; these kids don't acquire enough life skills to be on their own in college. I think I read some SOS from the parents of such kids on CC not that long ago.
I don't think there is a single solution to the problem. My own involves telling my S that, if homework is not done by 11pm, it won't get done that day and better go to bed.</p>
<p>What a heart wrenching story! I, too joined too late to have heard this. What a terrible memory for your DD. Mine also did too much, and I can't remember how many times I said, one missed assignment won't kill your grade. Go to bed! My DD hates the thought that she doesn't know something, so she also has to watch CNN, etc. And the time we were at Kinko's at 2:00 a.m. because our printer picked that night to die, and the brochure had to be done and turned in the next day in order to get the 5 point bonus by turning it in early... And think of the suicides in Japan! There, only the elite get into any college! I, as a teacher, see both sides, the 5-10% that do too much and really care, and the rest that could care less. Thank you for sharing, carolyn.</p>
<p>Don't flame me please...I want to look at another side of this thread. It does sound like many of the posters have children who are driven, either by pressures outside of themselves, or by themselves alone. I don't think that is the case for most teens, however. I don't want to put too much pressure on my daughter, but nor do I feel I can sit back and let things fall where they may. I truly think she has talent and creativity -- WHEN she puts her mind to it. The problem, is that like most teens, she would far prefer to "hang out", instant message with friends (and cyberfriends) on the computer, listen to music, and read a good book now and then. (OOPS...sounds like her mom on CC!!!) School and EC's are just not important to her. I DO want better things for her. I want her to try new opportunities, to stretch her talents, to occasionally push herself beyond the easy road. Am I looking for IVY prestige? Certainly not. Nor do I want to push her beyond what can be handled. I also believe all of us need down time, and opportunities to do nothing but dream. But sometimes a push is required.</p>
<p>I've heard teachers occasionally comment that "student X" is an "average" student. While probably not intended, it comes across as that is their place, and they're doing just fine. But that frustrates me. I think we are all capable of more, IF encouraged. Sometimes that statement sets up a self-fulfilling prophesy, and that's all the student will strive to achieve. I loved the movie "Stand and Deliver". The teacher expected higher, and the students met the challenge. </p>
<p>I just looked at the final list of colleges that a previous graduating HS class of my daughter's school planned to attend. . It broke my heart. Nearly 95% went to local state schools. Few pushed themselves to think beyond the box. This is partially due to finances. We are in a middle income public school district. My guess is that few families can justify the difference in costs. But it is also a general attitude. It is "good enough". </p>
<p>Cheer's posts have always impressed me. She obviously had a dream, and went for it, despite the loans and hassles. How do you encourage those dreams, however, in the teens that have not yet found them? In a school that doesn't encourage them? I think it does take an occasional push, or "nag" to encourage them to try new things, and take on new responsibilities.</p>
<p>As with all things, however, it is often hard to find the balance.</p>
<p>k. Thanks. I needed that. </p>
<p>Take heart--or we might have to give you a Coward for Needless Worry!</p>
<p>My ambition did not kick in until the end of sophomore year. I was 19 1/2. I did not decide to 'go for gold' until 20 1/2. I can remember the physical sensation of 'ambition' kicking in.</p>
<p>It wasn't hard to catch up--or pass--those valedictorians. Not least because 1) early success is heavy to carry around and 2) a bit of failure and/or setback didn't worry me. </p>
<p>Apologies to kluge:</p>
<p>
[quote]
All the things which <strong>didn't</strong> help her with academics actually gave her a leg up in life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ripeness is all.</p>
<p>William Shakespeare. King Lear. </p>
<p>Because I hate quotes when they are familiar but you don't know where they are from.</p>
<p>I couldn't help but add my two cents after reading through this very interesting thred. To place me, I'm just about done with my junior year of high school.
Throughout my life, I have always been a self-motivated over-acheiver. My parents are happy as long as I'm happy, healthy as long as I'm healthy and while they have alwyas pushed me to try my best at school, they've never demanded "Straight A's". They're proud I have them, but don't push them. So I don't think that the pressure always comes from the parents.
Speaking only for my generation, we were raised in a world where college is the next step for everyone after high school. Most of us were unintentionally spoiled by our parents and aren't used to rejection or being told that we can't have something or can't do something that we don't want to do. Therefore, if a kid wants to go to X school, they do whatever it takes because THEY WANT IT. Combine this with the population increase, a greater number of international students, a greater number of the general population that attends college, as well as no new "top universities" being built, and yeah, its going to be harder.</p>
<p>Hey folks - I'm not saying that kids shouldn't strive for their goals or get a good education, but I think there are times when it's ok to let them pull back and say good enough is good enough. As parents, we need to let them know that it is OK if they need to pull back or not be pushed quite so hard, whether it is external or internal pushing.</p>
<p>I have a friend who I admire quite a bit. We actually met in Lamaze class when I was pregnant with D. and she was pregnant with her 4th child. Her son is a very, very bright young man but has never liked school. She and her husband have pushed and prodded and finally, in January, just decided to let him take the GED and be done with it. He is planning to go for a certificate in auto repair in the fall. When she told me this, I was, I admit, horrified - what? no college!? - but then she said "Look, it's awfully hard pushing a boulder uphill alone. Why should we keep pushing that boulder if he doesn't want to push along with us?" She is convinced, rightly or wrongly, that he will be OK in the end but as she also said, "If he's not happy or screws up, well, that will be his problem to deal with, not mine." I can't say I agree with her totally, but I do see her point. </p>
<p>My daughter is pushing her own boulder. She may not have quite as big a boulder as I think she should be handling, but I believe, deep in my heart, that if she trusts herself and follows her own heart, that she will be fine in the end. </p>
<p>So, I guess, as parents we have to find the right balance. It's hard when you have a bright and talented kid not to want them to reach for the stars. It's also hard, as I've found out, to accept that even bright and talented kids can be OK if they want to take a more...shall we say...scenic route in life. The key, in my mind, is paying attention to what our kids are really saying and feeling and telling them it is OK if they just want to be or only able to be - gasp - average or follow a different path in life, even if that path is not the one we would choose for ourselves. </p>
<p>(Obviously, I am talking about generally good kids here. If drugs or other problem behaviors are involved, then yes, parents need to and should step in and do whatever is necessary to get their kids back on the right track)</p>
<p>We also have to keep in mind that while it's fine to be proud of our children's accomplishments, we shouldn't let those accomplishments get tied up in our own sense of self worth. The colleges our kids go to, the careers they choose, their successes in life are THEIR accomplishments, not ours. And, by the same token, their failures are THEIRS as well. We are not somehow better parents or better people if they achieve more than our neighbor's kids. </p>
<p>Not everyone is cut out to be a superstar. Not everyone is cut out to be an auto mechanic. The best we can do is help our kids figure out where they fall on the continuum and support them gently along the way. And, of course, we need to love them, always.</p>