<p>
[quote]
we were raised in a world where college is the next step for everyone after high school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Middle class American world. </p>
<p>Not The World. </p>
<p>Big Place, The World.</p>
<p>Not to flame anyone but I disagree with both Bmoyilan's statement that Carolyn and her daughter are placing hapiness above academic success and Cur's pov. C and D are trying to find a balanced and heathful lifestyle appropriate for a teenager. I don't think a balanced life will diminish a student academically in the long run. I also disagree to Cur. I have a D very similar in profile to yours and I don't care if the motivation comes from within, it doesn't mean the workload is without cost. The kids have so many activities (all of which individually may be good things) pulling at them that IMHO it's too much.</p>
<p>Blame it on the adcom(lol)</p>
<p>Carolyn, thanks for sharing that story. I 've learned not to put any pressure on d since I've been on CC. In fact, I often question my d's true motive about starting a Literature club, I did not want her to do that for any college, only if she really wants to. I suggest d to limit her ECs to one or two things. I suggest no summer school, so her brain can rest, lots of free time for reading, sleeping, and growing. I let her drop her least favorite activities she has been doing these for 6-7 years such as piano, soccer, competitive swim, etc..Eventhough I hate the idea of quiting. However,
my husband and I remember our childhood fondly, we did nothing in the summer and we had a great time.
I often preach the philosophy, it's not where you start that matters but where you end up in life and never forget failure is the mother of all success.</p>
<p>SusieQ - "Blame it on the adcom" I think you are exactly right.</p>
<p>Kjofkw wrote:
[quote]
I just looked at the final list of colleges that a previous graduating HS class of my daughter's school planned to attend. . It broke my heart. Nearly 95% went to local state schools.
[/quote]
I'm sorry you feel that way. What is wrong with the schools in your state??? </p>
<p>I've posted this before - I would be absolutely delighted if my daughter would forget about private colleges and simply attend whatever UC campus she can get into. Her father and I are graduates of UC campuses - I had a great time in college, my friends all graduated and have had rewarding lives. I still don't quite "get" what the elite education is supposed to produce. One of the things I really liked about my undergraduate days is the sheer enormity of choices I had at a large university -- I changed majors about 4 times, even changed schools within the university when I decided I wanted a major offered by a different school. The course catalog was an endless source of discovery. As far as I could tell, there was no subject that wasn't taught. So I dabbled with philosophy and history and rhetoric and political science and creative writing -- and I loved getting to know the profs within each department. I never saw the university as a huge, impersonal and impenetrable fortress -- rather it was a conglomeration of a bunch of departments of varying size, each with their own distinct flavor. </p>
<p>My son went to a small LAC where in some subject areas, there were only one or two profs -- if one was on sabbatical, that left only one teaching the subject. It was a good school -- but definitely lacking in choice. I mean, when I was a student one way I maximized my own experience was getting the word as to which were the best profs and being sure to sign up for their sections. I also learned early on that individual classes had wait lists -- if the class was full at first, you could hang around for a couple of weeks, and a space was likely to open up before the drop deadline. </p>
<p>I certainly can understand why a kid might choose a prestige college over the state school ... but 95% of the kids at a public high school are, by definition, not in the running for the Ivy's -- so what are they really going to get choosing an out-of-state private college over a state university with far more resources? True, they get the horizon-broadening experience of living away from home.... but there is more than one way to get that experience. It doesn't have to be college. </p>
<p>So don't shed tears over the kids who have committed the crime of setting reasonable goals for themselves, or who happen to like the state that they were born in.</p>
<p>The only kids that are working hard in high school and, for the most part, college, are the top 5% of kids. Everyone else is busy partying.</p>
<p>In a sense, the top 5% does enough work for the rest of the student body combined.</p>
<p>Unluckycharms - don't you think it's contingent upon a number of factors, though? How competitive the system is, how large the class size, etc.</p>
<p>There are several girls in my h.s. who have cheated their way to the top of the class. Every Monday morning, I overhear them chattering about how drunk they were and how "awesome" the weekend was. Many of them hold high UW GPAs. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, a close friend of mine has a GPA hovering just above a 3.0. She is, however, a gifted musician and composer who tells me Monday mornings about a new melody she discovered over the weekend. </p>
<p>I would say that a large number of overachievers are partying as much as their underachieving counterparts.</p>
<p>It is hugely unfair to assume that the only responsible ones are the kids whose GPAs are the prettiest of all.</p>
<p>Carolyn, In the course of reading this board I've picked up bits and pieces of your daughter's story, but hearing it all at once is both sobering and inspirational. You and your daughter should be so proud of all you've accomplished. . .and more good things to come!</p>
<p>I was talking with a friend the other day about all of this, and she said, "These people have such high expectations for their kids. Expectations that they themselves didn't achieve. How can they expect something of their offspring that they themselves didn't do?".. When dreams of the Princeton Tiger go wafting by I give myself a reality check. I never thought of applying there myself. If my kids end up being that calibre of student, well, great, if not, they're lucky to be like me! LOL</p>
<p>I wholly agree, dropofwater... some of the most interesting and intelligent people I know in my school aren't in the top 5% of the class.</p>
<p>I don't know but I will assume parents and others have surreptitious ways to "encourage" what I'll call "overachievement stress". I will even go so far as to say I could probably see ways I could successfully do that if I was so inclined. I am not so inclined. I didn't and don't view those actions and motivations of parents and others as the reason for this thead. If that was the reason, then my previous posts and this one are clearly off target.</p>
<p>I am concerned with my D's delaying of gratification, but not always , and not to a level that I worry about her mental status. I know that the ability to sacrifice immediate gratifcation for the sake of a future benefit is supposed to signal a maturing of thought processes in a teenager, a milestone of sorts in emotional development. I just have a sadness about a child , or any child, spending the the majority of their childhood primarily concerned about their future and ways to supposedly improve that future. I do agree that some students are pushed and pulled beyond their capabilities and when they are away from the support systems that they are used to they do sink like a rock. I've seen it. That is not D, or students like D. Except situationally, D and her ilk are not overstressed-they are "under-funned" by their own choice. Most everything they use their limited time resources to do has a purpose and most often that purpose is self-improvement or at least something they feel is self-improvement. </p>
<p>My objection to this teenage life choice to be the best you can be is simple. When are you going to just let loose and have some fun? Take time to be truly goofy, or truly sybaritically bubble bath lazy? Play is a word that I think some of these kids forget (Yes, maybe some parents ,too.). I would have hoped that play did not always mean play an organized game, or play-ing a musical instrument, or doing anything with a hope or purpose of competing or improving or practicing. I would have hoped that service to others wouldn't mean delaying forever a whole unstructured day of reading "Seventeen", "Teen Vogue", and "Teen People" (almost said "Tiger-Beat". LOL) and listening to music with friends.</p>
<p>I'm just a Dad who wished she'd take me up more often on an offer to go fishing, or on a long explore on the back of my bike to nowhere in particular. I'll have to admit to being jealous of SATS, and AP's, grades, and the Spring Concert Series. If I was being honest that probably is more of my concern than I was willing to admit when I started this post. I do want my kid to stay a kid a little longer, and act like a kid a little more often. For her own sake, and I guess I'll have to admit it -for mine,too.</p>
<p>
I find this to be a helpful insight. Thank you, Paris.</p>
<p>Robyrm wrote: "I am not sure that 15 year olds or 18 year olds are fully equipped to differentiate between healthy and unhealthy stress, internal and external motivation." Thank you!</p>
<p>The internal and external motivation is my big time parenting dilemna. For me it is easier feeling comfortable with a very lopsided student "working too hard" on a long term continually developing and evolving interest that doesn't excite a lot of admiration in peers and teachers than with the over achieving BWRKs or those who excel in particular areas that impress "most" people. When they get so much external approbation, I don't know if they ever do something just for the joy of the experience. It isn't at all clear to me that they understand the difference! And sometime in their lives, to really fullfill their potential, they are really going to need to get that aren't they?</p>
<p>Robyrm wrote: "Parents are not afraid to set limits when it comes to driving/curfews/etc...is this so different???"</p>
<p>LOL-- We did set limits in high school and recently told one of our college students we won't allow two internships (planned to run simultaneously??) in one summer and are now waiting to see if college students still believe they still have to follow the parents' rules!</p>
<p>I do agree that much of the stress of overachieving students comes from within. As a student, I think the best thing that parents can do is to teach their kids to temper their perfectionism and goal- orientation. This is especially hard because the same drive to perfection is a problem amongst parents as much as it is amongst students. I see so many working moms and dads(including my dear own:)) working themselves to exhaustion to try to do everything. I know that a great deal of their efforts are directed at enabling me to succeed, but I'd really just rather they take some time for themselves once in a while. It's a good thing to be concerned about and working towards shaping one's future-- to an extent. But eventually everyone has to face the fact that one person simply cannot be five places and do six things at once, and that perfection is not achievable; IMHO, this is better learned sooner than later.</p>
<p>Kjofkw wrote:
Quote:
I just looked at the final list of colleges that a previous graduating HS class of my daughter's school planned to attend. . It broke my heart. Nearly 95% went to local state schools.</p>
<p>Calmom wrote:
I'm sorry you feel that way. What is wrong with the schools in your state??? </p>
<p>I don't think that Kjofkw was upset with the quality of the schools in her state. I think that she was upset that many of the kids in her D's school only thought that the local state school was the only path to take. My kids school is very different in our area in that most of the students go away to college. My H and I have friends in other local schools where the most common path is to live at home and go to the local university. There is nothing wrong with that but I hope that most on this board would agree with me that sending your child away to school is the best thing that you can do for them.</p>
<p>My H and I went to a friends D's graduation party and she and most of her friends were going to the local U. This girl was the val of her class! She was choosing to stay at home and attend a local U. There is nothing wrong with the school but it is predominately a school for the untraditional student. The comment from her mother was that <em>she</em> wasn't ready for her D to go away to school and "do you know what they do at college". Well yea, that's why I want him to go away!</p>
<p>I just wish that these kids know that there are other paths and opportunities for them. I feel that the GD at many of our schools are so busy with day to day problems that they don't or can't advise their students of opportunities that they could find that are not at the local U.</p>
<p>Cur wrote " I didn't and don't view those actions and motivations of parents and others as the reason for this thead. If that was the reason, then my previous posts and this one are clearly off target."</p>
<p>Exactly, I didn't start this thread to dis parenting styles. My friends whose kids have similar profiles to D are as perplexed by the rush to accelerate as I am. It is totally foreign to how we were educated. I don't remember if my hs had any aps, but I don't think kids went to summer school practically every summer of their hs years to take very condensed prerequisites to be eligible for aps! Where we live this is very common now. I do think it stems from the adcoms and trickles down to the gc's and then to the kids most inclined to take up any challenge by personality and or ability.</p>
<p>Drop of Water - I totally agree, cheating messes up the whole top of the class thing. I can only say this thread is not directed at stopping cheating or recognizing the destructive effects felt by all the honest students in our high schools.</p>
<p>Where we live, the pressure doesn't come from the adcoms, or even the school. We live in an upscale SoCal community with many immigrants from around the world - doctors, business people, professionals - who have a very strong work ethic and who have successfully imparted that to their kids. Their kids are very ambitious, but most(although I know a couple of exceptions) seem to handle it pretty well. What I see is the "native" kids feeling the competition and pressure to keep up.</p>
<p>Parents feed into this to some extent as they see how accomplished some of these kids whose culture values education so highly have become. Most of these families have sent their kids to tutors since they were five. They are bright, ambitious, talented, competitive, yet personable and contribute a lot of positive energy to the schools. Many of the kids born and raised here, especially in California, have to do quite a bit of scrambling to come close to staying with that group, if they even try. Granted this is not the only source of competitive stress, but it is a big one where I live. The girls seem to be a bit more driven by this than the boys, from my experience.
What to do? What these kids are seeing is the reality of the global world competition, right at their doorstep. Colleges are more competitive partly for this reason. It's not something we had to contend with when we were growing up, but our kids are growing up in a different, smaller world. It's important that they learn to find their niche in this setting, because this is the way it will be in college and after college as well.
If kids use what they learn from these families as inspiration, and not as something they necessarily have to copy and become, they would be a lot happier. We need to make sure our kids understand that there is more to life than achievement -yet still prepare them for the competitive world they will live and work in. It's a tough balancing act, but the first step is recognizing that it's necessary - at least in our community and others like it.</p>
<p>I hope that when these overscheduled, overworked, exhausted overachievers become adults they don't suddenly realize that there was one more activity they forgot to squeeze into their overpacked schedules-just being a kid. Sometimes the best preparation for adult life is to have had a childhood.</p>
<p>
[quote=my good friend ,carolyn]
Not everyone is cut out to be a superstar. Not everyone is cut out to be an auto mechanic.The best we can do is help our kids figure out where they fall on the continuum and support them gently along the way.
[/quote]
But what if they're cut out to be a superstar mechanic? I know you well enough (on this board) to know you weren't equating "superstar" with one end of your continuum and "mechanic" with the other. But before someone else took you to task for it, I thought I would jump in instead. I have two mechanic stories. First, my drop-out dad who ended up being a "mechanic" for 23 years in the service working on missile defense systems who parlayed that into a six-figure income with a global food company . A success by most standards, certainly by mine. But the one that hits the hardest is the boy we chuckled at on career day for saying he wanted to work on racing motorcycles as a mechanic. He is now a crew chief for a factory team, living a dream life and making an income only slightly less than a good cardio-thoracic surgeon. As a big motorcycle racing fan , I hope to get his autograph on my helmet someday. (BTW, I believe Jesse James,the bike-builder, is dating Sandra Bullock. That probably equates to superstar in some people's mind. LOL.)</p>
<p>I have often been critical of the pressure placed on students to be uber achievers. It is widely acknowledged that serious depression is a problem for about a third of the undergraduate student body at Harvard and other "elite" universities. No doubt some of this is a direct result of the pressure these students have been under since high school.</p>
<p>The simple solution is to have students realize that they can be happy and be as prepared to succeed in life by attending one of hundreds of colleges across the country. The can have a "normal" high school experience and find there way to fine colleges such as Case, Colgate or USC. It will always be their natural abilities, attitude and perserverence which will determine their success or failure in life.</p>
<p>Having said that, I also believe that there are a few rare students who have a fierce inner drive to achieve. The challenge is entirely internal and satisfies them. They are not perfectionists but have a healthy desire to push themselves. They are physiclally, mentally and emotionally healthy. They are happy. for these one in ten thousand students I say amen. Go for it.</p>