<p>I do not know how many other families have had this experience, but I am hoping some have- so I can get some help! Both S/D ( twins) had come up with a well-researched list and we have visited one-half of schools on list. College counselor requires all non-ED applications to be in office by November 1, so we are in the last minutes ( so to speak) of adding additional schools. Now DS tells us he wants to drop a number of the smaller LAC's because of what he has read on websites that provide the student perspective at different schools.</p>
<p>Kids spent all of educational life in good public schools until their junior year when we transfered to private prep school in order to get all of the AP and honors courses they wanted. Both kids are not partyers- they are concerned about being accepted by kids who do choose to drink, etc. if they do not want to participate. They also want an enviroment where a student knows professors and classes are around 30 kids-they do know one or 2 schools on their current list do not meet that criteria.</p>
<p>So ....my question is how to help kids determine whether the social environment will be comfortable for them and how accurate are the websites that provide "student perspective" on life at a particular school.</p>
<p>Schools on their list include: Wake Forest, Rhodes, Furman, W and L, Wofford, St. Mary's in Maryland, Oglethorpe, Pepperdine and the reaches-Dartmouth and Cornell.</p>
<p>Thanks to anyone and everyone who can provide some guidance/help!</p>
<p>Georgiatwins, I can vouch for Wake Forest- My son is a happy sophomore there. He is not a partyer, but is fun loving. He found a great group of friends at Wake Forest who are like minded. The best part is, unlike highschool here in NJ, he does not feel in the minority, and did not have a hard time finding such a group. That is not to say there is not a large percentage of students who do drink at Wake, because he says there is. The difference is, there is also a large group who have fun without it. They are very involved in Model UN, Student Goverment, and especially Screamon Deacons. (student support of sporting events, they have fun!) By the time you throw in the notorious Wake workload, (if you are a serious student) truthfully, there is no time to party even if you wanted to! I think if they are on the right track now, and have made it through high school being there own person (in your case "people") they will thrive wherever they go. Good luck.</p>
<p>It's an important consideration. Some schools offer online chats with real students for prospective students that may be a way to get the information you want. Another way is to use the "Colleges" forums here at CC. I do know some schools have clubs that organize dry activities and most offer substance free housing. Have them search the websites for that information or call the admissions office and ask them to hook you up with a student ambassador who can give you the real skinny.</p>
<p>Another spot is campusdirt.com which gives student reported data on partying. You can assume that the stats are not 100% reliable but, for example, I just checked and 72% of Furman students report that drinking happens 1-2 nights a week and 22% report that they drink 3-5 times a week. Since campus dirt doesn't give responders the option to choose "never" I interpret it to mean that there is not a huge party scene. On the other hand when I checked Loyola ( I assumed MD) it said 54% of students report partying 1-2 nights a week and 42% reported drinking 3-5 nights a week. My mental pic is that there is more partying happening at Loyola but not nearly as much as you might find at Washington and Lee where 64% reported drinking 3-5 nights a week and and 14% said they partied 6 -7 times a week. </p>
<p>With the caveat that these are non-scientific studies in mind, you can get a suggestion of how hard the students party by visiting the site. Also since "never" is not an option,it is safe to assume that some of the kids who would be answering "never" are either not completing the survey or are putting down 1-3 nights because it's the lowest choice offered. </p>
<p>My girls have similar concerns in their college choice and though they are a year younger then your twins they haven't so far focused on eliminating "party schools" it's more that they look to make sure they offer the things they do want socially, Outdoor rec programs, intramural soccer, and a Newman club if the school is not Catholic. If your kids are able to do something like that then they will be sure to find other kids like them who don't view partying as a requisite for fun. Good Luck!</p>
<p>I think if you're not interested in partying but are attracted to other aspects of a school that has a party-hearty (or "work hard/play hard") reputation, you may be better off at a big school than a small one.</p>
<p>At any college, there are non-partyers. But at big schools, there are more of them. Those who don't run with the crowd find sufficient-sized smaller crowds of their own.</p>
<p>Neither of mine wanted small schools. They wanted to leave the too-intimate atmosphere of high school for more anonymous enivronments. ("Mom, youhave no idea how fast 'news' travels across a small campus" ) They felt they had the LAC experience in high school.</p>
<p>They both applied to mid-sized to large urban schools, half of them sight unseen. One attends a school he chose based on his parameters. The other one attends a school he visited. DH and I both attended universities we never visited. </p>
<p>Size is a critical issue--one of the top three I'd say. Size was probably at the top of my sons' lists. If it were me, I'd heed any comment regarding size.</p>
<p>Don't confuse size and culture. Some big schools are more party and social driven; some small schools are more introverted and quiet. My son chose a small LAC with a stereotypical party reputation. He found the size to be a plus and the reputation for alcohol abuse to be much exaggerated. I'm sure the same could be said about many colleges -- big and small.</p>
<p>Having last minute doubts about The List is not uncommon, but it's also a good opportunity for the student to ask him/herself "just why am I applying to this college?"</p>
<p>Of the schools that I'm familiar with on your twins' list I would say that active, outgoing, social kids are the common denominator. If that isn't the culture that appeals to them, then maybe they should re-think or add a few more.</p>
<p>The connection between drinking and a social active student body is both obvious and misleading. Yes, kids will drink at parties. If parties are an main focus of the social scene, then drinking will be a main focus of the social scene. Having said that no one even at the most alcohol soaked campus is going to force or coerce another student to drink. Kids are very health and choice savy these days. It's not at all uncommon to abstain or choose to drink moderately. </p>
<p>If that's the only issue that's worrying your kids, then I'd say that they have a good consistent list.</p>
<p>Thanks to all of you so much for your insights and experience. Knowing what other parents/kids have been through helps me to know D/S concerns are not unusual. The info. on W and L confirmed what I had seen in many places. I had never heard of the campusdirt site-D and I spent a fair amount of time on site yesterday-Thanks.</p>
<p>Marian, cheers and momrath- your comments about school size make a good point. I think our S is beginning to think that being in a larger group of students might give him more options when it comes to finding friends he is comfortable with.</p>
<p>I forwarded everyone's messages to both kids. My D read all and said she knows every campus will have all of the issues above- " I just want to go somewhere where I can be happy". As momrath says above-D/S need to use this as an opportunity to understand why they are applying to a certain school and not be reluctant to throw other schools into the pot.</p>
<p>Georgiatwins, am I understanding you correctly that the school requires their apps to be completed by Nov. 1 for a Jan. 1 deadline? What are the consequences if another school is added in, say in late Nov. or early Dec.? I'd have a problem with the school being that dictatorial! H.S. seniors are so busy and often unsure/insecure about making college decisions and, given the normal Jan. 1 deadline, should be able to use as much time as possible to make their decisions. Is this early deadline unusual?</p>
<p>November 1st does seem a bit early. Our HS used Dec. 1st as a deadline.<br>
Best thing that could have happened to us. Took the pressure off the parents to nudge our kids to complete the applications and enabled the family to have a stressless Xmas./ New Year holiday.</p>
<p>My kids also stayed away from small LAC's- just thought it would be too confining an atmosphere for them. That said- d # 1 did look at "small universities" like University of Rochester.<br>
Since your kids are thinking Cornell and Dartmouth, I'll assume NE schools are ok for consideration.<br>
so might they want to check out schools like U of Rochester, Carnegie Mellon, Tufts, and also Emory, Rice , or Wash U??
student population a bit bigger than LAC's which may lead to a more diverse student population and culture on campus.<br>
Just a thought of some other schools for your kids to look into. Your kids still have 6 months until they have to make a decision- so there really should be sufficient time to throw a few more applications in.</p>
<p>D also is not into the party scene. And at the last minute, last week of December, she added an LAC supposedly known for partying and drinking. She is a jr. there now, and still doesn't drink. Nor do her friends. She met them in Sub-free housing freshman year, and they are still friends. In fact, she works security and keeps the booze out! If she does go to a party, she doesn't drink, and no one cares. I wonder about those reputations. I think kids find their own niche wherever they go. Don't eliminate something you wanted just because of reputation. You visits are more important.</p>
<p>The college counselor at D/S school is tremendous, but DOES have a November 1 deadline for all applications going RD or ED II. The early date has put a tremendous amount of stress on both kids ( not to mention myself or H). I am assuming ( you know what to say about that adage) that students can add schools after the school's self-imposed deadling- but will have to check how quickly applications go out. </p>
<p>Marny1, thanks for those added suggestions- they have actually added Tufts to their list. Ironically, we live in Atlanta and Emory has not really been a consideration. I will have them take a look at CM.</p>
<p>erj1- good for your daughter-it is great to hear of other kids who have had similar concerns and were able to attend the school of their choice and maintain their own sense of self. You must be very happy for her success in that area-I would.</p>
<p>S's high school also had a self-imposed deadline of 11/1, but S added a couple of colleges the last week of December and informed his counselor and teacher recs immediately when school resumed in January. No problem - they simply photocopied the recs on file and sent them off with the stamped envelopes we provided. He is now attending one of those last-minute colleges - Cornell.</p>
<p>As you may know, because of its location, weather and Greek scene, Cornell has a reputation for partying. However, S has very little interest in that. He has lots of friends, a good social life (such as it is for an engineering student) and many choices for fun things to do, and thoroughly loves Cornell.</p>
<p>I would be wary of the websites where students submit reviews of colleges. I think in many cases, the majority of kids who post there are the unhappy ones. And especially in the case of small, LACs, there aren't enough people posting to be a representative sample of students. </p>
<p>If you can't visit the college, other ways to find out about the social life are asking the college to let you talk to students either on the phone or in an online chat; seeing if there are any students at the college who graduated from your kids' high school to talk to; posting questions on the college-specific boards on CC; asking questions on the college communities on livejournal.</p>
<p>But in the end, you really can't tell until you visit, and do an overnight. In fact, you really can't tell what your experience will be until you move in freshman year. Sometimes your experience depends on the dorm you end up on; even the floor can matter.</p>
<p>My daughter is not into partying (at least, that's what she says and I tend to believe her). She has not found it difficult at all finding kids like her; she goes to a medium size school (about 6000 undergrads). She's left parties full of drunk people to hang out with nondrinkers. A lot of schools have a significant percentage of kids who don't get drunk all the time. At very small LACs, the percentage might be the same, but the actual number of kids not that large, so it's harder to get a significant mass of nonpartiers to do alternative things.</p>
<p>I don't know much about the schools on their list, but I'm sure other CC parents do. And that Nov. 1 deadline does seem awfully early!</p>
<p>November 1 is a full two to four months before the deadline for a large majority of RD colleges. Has anyone asked the GC what purpose this artificial deadline serves?</p>
<p>FWIW, my son made a last-minute decision to apply to a lesser-known college and that's where he's going now. This GC isn't doing anyone any favors.</p>
<p>I agree with you in part, but I can also understand the workload on the teachers and GC. Our HS tells kids to expect a four-week turnaround for recs. Thus, a Nov 1 date means that the stuff is ready to go ~Dec 1, which is only two weeks prior to school vacation. Assuming the applicant wants the recs at the college on Jan 1, they would have to be mailed prior to vacation period, or mid-December. If the recs don't get mailed until after the winter break, the first week of Jan.....</p>
<p>The OP seems to be asking more about the kids' changing their mind so I'm not sure why many are debating the Nov 1 date. It's what the counselor has set...and....at this point in the kids' senior year, arguing with the counselor is likely to serve little constructive purpose. </p>
<p>That said...for many colleges...if the basic application, and everything the student can submit, is in by Jan 1...they'll usually take the other materials (transcripts, teacher recs, even test scores) after Jan 1. So...if there's 1 or 2 schools that your kids want to add...and if the GC is somewhat reasonable....the GC will probably find a way to get the materials to the added schools.</p>
<p>There are many on this site whose kids have changed their "list" up until the last possible minute...whether that time is the actual college deadline date, or the HS counselor's deadline. The whole partying issue is a big one...but...there are very few colleges where every single undergraduate is a partier. If everything else about the college appeals to them, they are likely to find a group of like-minded students. For schools that are really questionable to them, they should try to talk with kids from their HS who attend the college...or arrange for an overnight stay on a Thursday or Friday.</p>
<p>My S is a sophomore at a LAC. When he was visiting colleges and submitting his applications, he wanted a medium sized univeristy (5-8000). However, there were a few schools to which we insisted he submit applications -- these included a few safeties and the LAC he now is attending. At the last minute in mid December, he submitted an application to an Ivy and was accepted there in April. However, when he visited the top 4 schools to which he was admitted, his final choice was between the two small LACs. Kids change their minds -- in October, November, December, and even after
receiving letters of admission. I am glad he applied to a wide range of schools in terms of size, location, university vs LAC.</p>
<p>Don't let your kids dismiss W&L....it is a wonderful school! My daughter is a freshman and absolutely LOVES it. She applied ED and says that it was the best decision she ever made.....she can't imagine being at any other school. She says there is drinking and partying, but there is no pressure on anyone to drink and there are a lot of students that do not drink. W&L goes "overboard" to make sure that the freshmen have a great experience. The students they admit are from such diverse backgrounds, it is easy for everyone to find their niche and special group of friends. My daughter has friends that are at other colleges throughout the U.S. and W&L sounds tame compared to a lot of them! Don't believe the "generalizations" you hear about W&L!</p>
<p>DS attends a school where there is partying. Weekends. Kids work during the week. He loves the friends he has made, but he "has an inexplicable aversion to the idea or smell of alcohol." His words. He has never had more than a sip, and he has always wished he hadn't.</p>
<p>He goes to parties and enjoys being present in case anything gets out of hand. He wants to be a doc. and is even thinking of taking somekind of rudimentary training so he can do basic first aid things.</p>
<p>But I digress. My point is that he loves everything else about his school and has found a way to be accepted even though he will not touch one drop of alcohol. His biggest problem is that his sister castigates him as a complete nerd.</p>
<p>I tack would be: yeah, just apply. If something more appealing comes through, don't go, but it doesn't hurt to have a few more options.</p>